Increasingly, Russian citizens opposed to the war are fleeing their country, taking asylum in other places – around the world. A significant number of these folks are queer – leaving not just because of their opposition to the war, but fleeing severe persecution in Russia, as the country cracks down on the LGBTQ community. And, they’re landing in places that are skeptical of them because of the war in Ukraine.
In this episode I’m talking to Maxim Eye-BAD-off, coordinator with Rusa LGBTQ+ - a network for Russian-speaking LGBTQ+ individuals in the United States, their friends, supporters and loved ones. They provide informational support to asylum seekers and organize social events to increase acceptance and inclusion of LGBTQ+ people within the Russian-speaking public.
We talk about the queer climate in Russia today, how it has evolved, the feedback loop of LGBTQ oppression – how the anti-LGBT policies instituted in Russia are being mirrored in red-states here in the US, that then inform further oppressive policies in Russia, the war in Ukraine, how it has created a global diaspora of Ukrainian and Russian refugees, and how you can support the community.
Recommended:
Rusa LGBTQ
What is War to a Grieving Child?
Mentioned:
The Idol
-------------------------
Follow Deep Dive:
Instagram
Post.news
YouTube
Email: deepdivewithshawn@gmail.com
**Artwork: Dovi Design
**Music: Joystock
Increasingly, Russian citizens opposed to the war are fleeing their country, taking asylum in other places – around the world. A significant number of these folks are queer – leaving not just because of their opposition to the war, but fleeing severe persecution in Russia, as the country cracks down on the LGBTQ community. And, they’re landing in places that are skeptical of them because of the war in Ukraine.
In this episode I’m talking to Maxim Eye-BAD-off, coordinator with Rusa LGBTQ+ - a network for Russian-speaking LGBTQ+ individuals in the United States, their friends, supporters and loved ones. They provide informational support to asylum seekers and organize social events to increase acceptance and inclusion of LGBTQ+ people within the Russian-speaking public.
We talk about the queer climate in Russia today, how it has evolved, the feedback loop of LGBTQ oppression – how the anti-LGBT policies instituted in Russia are being mirrored in red-states here in the US, that then inform further oppressive policies in Russia, the war in Ukraine, how it has created a global diaspora of Ukrainian and Russian refugees, and how you can support the community.
Recommended:
Rusa LGBTQ
What is War to a Grieving Child?
Mentioned:
The Idol
-------------------------
Follow Deep Dive:
Instagram
Post.news
YouTube
Email: deepdivewithshawn@gmail.com
**Artwork: Dovi Design
**Music: Joystock
Maxim Ibadov - RUSA LGBTQ+ (and Be Willing to Bear Witness)
[00:00:00] Maxim: All the good infrastructure that was left from Soviet Union was not maintained and honestly, heavily neglected because of corruption. But Putin was never interested in bettering the lives of his people or making Russia this powerful nation by building up its own society. So Putin kind of saw that this is kind of the same thing that a lot of dictators do.
[00:00:24] They choose a small dictators and fascist. They choose a small minority that most people would not relate to 'cause they don't know somebody who's queer or they don't know somebody that's trans or they don't know that, or they actually do know those people, but they don't know that they are 'cause they're not out.
[00:00:41] So he was able to shift the perspective so that instead of complaining about the how bad the government is, Putin took. Russian people's homophobia to distract them from his own inability to govern.[00:01:00]
[00:01:02] Shawn: Welcome to Deep Dive with me, Shawn c Fettig. Increasingly Russian citizens opposed to the war are fleeing their country taking asylum in other places around the world. A significant number of these folks are queer. Leaving, not just because of their opposition to the war, but fleeing severe persecution in Russia as the country cracks down on the L G B T community and they're landing in places that are skeptical of them because of the war in Ukraine.
[00:01:32] Today I'm talking to Maxim Ibadov coordinator with Russa LGBTQ plus a network for Russian speaking, LGBTQ plus individuals, their friends, supporters, and loved ones. They provide informational support to asylum seekers and organize social events to increase acceptance and inclusion of LGBTQ plus people within the Russian speaking public.
[00:01:55] We talk about the queer climate in Russia today, how it's evolved, [00:02:00] the feedback loop of G B T Q oppression, how the anti L G T policies instituted in Russia are being mirrored in red states here in the us, that then inform further oppressive policies in Russia, the war in Ukraine. How it's created a global diaspora of Ukrainian and Russian refugees and how you can support the community.
[00:02:22] If you like this episode or any episode, please give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. As always, if you have any thoughts, questions, or comments, please feel free to email deep dive with Shawn@gmail.com. Let's do a deep dive.
[00:02:46] Maxim, thanks for being here. How are you?
[00:02:49] Maxim: I am doing fabulous. You know, almost to recover from pride, almost couple of more good nights of sleep and I'll. What
[00:02:57] Shawn: happens to you at Pride that you take so long to [00:03:00] recover?
[00:03:01] Maxim: Oh, what doesn't happen to me at Pride? Um, you know, it's a very busy season. I work with a little, the queer community in different capacities.
[00:03:09] I do advocacy, I do, uh, community building, I do nightlife, I do drag. So pride is the busiest time of the year for me. Nonstop events, nonstop, uh, seeing people and going to different parties and supporting folks and just. It's a lot for a body, mind, spirit, and soul.
[00:03:28] Shawn: Mm-hmm. So it's not like, uh, what happens at Pride stays at Pride thing?
[00:03:32] Maxim: Um, I, I Sometimes it does, it depends on, depends on what happens. But most of the work, I try to keep it, you know, inspirational all year round. 'cause you know, pride is 365. Mm-hmm. And the power that's available to us on Pride is available to us outside of Pride. That's a good message. Recording RuPaul. He says that the power available to you in drag is available to you outta drag.
[00:03:57] Shawn: That's so true and so important right now. [00:04:00] Mm-hmm. Which brings me to why I'm excited to have you here. So tell me about RUSA LGBTQ plus, what you do, why you do it, how you do it.
[00:04:09] Maxim: Sure. Thank you again for giving us a platform to speak about, uh, what we do. L G B T Q stands for Russian Speaking Americans, and it has existed since 2008, so that's four presidents ago.
[00:04:25] If you're looking at it from a historical, uh, point of view, Bush was president when they created this organization and we're celebrating our 15 year anniversary this year. Uh, we are a registered 5 0 1 C three, so we are official and we help the Russian speaking L G B T Q community here. Uh, we work, uh, with a lot of immigrants who work with refugees and asylum seekers.
[00:04:50] We help the new folks who come here to adapt. We provide them with connections to legal advice. We provide them [00:05:00] with whatever help they might need from us, whether it's letters for shelter and housing, whether it's, uh, a certain connections with work, uh, whether it's connection to a medical professional.
[00:05:13] Uh, we have an incredible medical coordinator on our team who works for. He helps so many people, 37 people a week just from Russa, getting them healthcare and answering any medical questions they have. And most importantly, what we do, we create community. We do a lot of community events. And community events vary from informational sessions to just tea parties, to club parties, to hikes in nature.
[00:05:43] To of course, our, um, signature annual Brighton Beach, March, Brighton Beach Pride, which is the first of the Pride parades that happens in New York because, you know, New York has a million of them. Mm-hmm. Every neighborhood now has one, and our Long Island has [00:06:00] three prides and then Jersey, so it's. It's a, it's a lot of marching, but we are the, we usually open up the season, we do it second to last week, uh, Sunday of May, and then we march right in Coney Island, Brighton Beach, like in the heart of the Russian speaking, uh, diaspora here in the United States.
[00:06:16] So that's kind of a short list of what we do. Um, we have a team. We actually, yesterday had a board meeting. It was nine hours long, but have. A big team of volunteers and coordinators and just the most incredible board members, and we really try to figure out what the needs of our community are and how can we best advocate for our community, whether it's politically or socially, or just the best job that we can do.
[00:06:45] Shawn: There's an event coming up this next week or next weekend, right.
[00:06:48] Maxim: We have a lot of events and that's kind of like primarily what I am focused on as the national coordinator. Mm-hmm. With events. Next week we have our, you know, [00:07:00] biannual meeting. Um, but we have two events later this month. Uh, one is a Dragon Live Music, uh, show at a a prominent queer bar in as story.
[00:07:10] And then at the end of the month we have live music, uh, theater show at Coney Island, u s a. So we have maybe 10. Nine events this month and they vary from, you know, yoga on a beach to informational sessions, meeting with lawyer to informational session, with session with somebody who works for City University of New York and helps people.
[00:07:35] Like, so it's gonna, we're gonna tell people how to apply to just, you know, good old.
[00:07:42] Shawn: So you mentioned, and in many parts, the United States drag and drag events are under like pretty serious threat right now, both legislatively, but also physically with pretty far right wing extremists showing up and you know, [00:08:00] throwing some muscle around. But you know, both you and I live in pretty progressive areas. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:05] What's the impact of that, or what are you seeing out there in your side of the country as it relates to kind of drag events and well, Into all with an experience in the drag scene.
[00:08:21] Maxim: You know, I am a drag artist myself, but I started doing a drag after being in the, in the scene with the Brooklyn drag queens and kings and non-binary things, all kinds of various performance for years Now, Brooklyn drag scene is one of the most vibrant, diverse, cutting edge, innovative scenes, I would say in the world.
[00:08:42] But for me, as somebody who grew up in southern Brooklyn, New York is huge and obviously the Brooklyn scene is primarily in the north, in, in a lot of the gentrified neighborhoods. And then I come from Southern Brooklyn, which has historically and always been working class immigrant, very conservative, especially Brighton Beach.
[00:08:58] Mm-hmm. So there aren't a [00:09:00] lot of drag events happening there. So there is that kind of, you, you ask how the situation in our progressive center, you know, Brooklyn itself is not progressive in, in the entirety of its island. You know, when you, if you go from north to the south, it gets more and more conservative.
[00:09:16] And I'm not exactly sure how those folks feel about drag, you know, probably negatively because they're being spoon like, you know, spoonfed the conservative propaganda from Fox News, which they consume way too much. And that's, I think why, for me it's very important that Russa has these events that highlight drag because we, it's, it's very important to have visible.
[00:09:41] Present and represented right now to counter the negative imagery and negative, um, portrait that the conservative are trying to paint of drag, uh, which I hope we get to talk about why they're doing it. And also we try to book and spotlight and [00:10:00] highlight, uh, drag performers who. Russian speaking countries.
[00:10:04] You know, I have, uh, a drag child, as I say, uh, who performs with us, we're still figuring out their name at the moment is Mr. Drama Delmar. And they've done drag back home in their city in Russia and they came here and they wanted to do it. And we're trying to spotlight them because I think. The strength comes in numbers, and if we have more drag performers that come from conservative places, that kind of becomes a very powerful manifestation of what we're fighting and what's possible.
[00:10:34] Shawn: Let me ask you about this because you did mention people coming from Russia to the States, uh, and I think I, there's a whole host of questions I've got in there. Mm-hmm. You know, as it relates to like acclimating or assimilating into Yes. You know, United States culture, which is just very different from Russian culture, and that's before you even throw in the added layer of, you know, queerness.
[00:10:53] Mm-hmm. You know, the difference between, you know, what it means to be queer in Russia and what it means to be in the United States. Could you help me [00:11:00] understand, for like queer folks in Russia, That then moved to the United States. What is particularly jarring or different for them in their experience with family?
[00:11:13] Mm-hmm. But also their experience with the queer community and with friends.
[00:11:18] Maxim: That's a, that's a, that's a very good question. I mean, it's, it's curious for me, because Russian culture is very queer. If you look at it, we have, you know, some of the most famous Russian. Cultural exports, you know, from Tchaikovsky to Rudolph to, to who is, you know?
[00:11:40] Exactly. Yeah. Seems like, you know, you're, you're probably laughing because it's like a wow, what a throwback. But if you look at it from a historic point of view, it was like late nineties or two thousands and having two, you know, lesbians who are both fake. And one of them ended up, you know, trying run for state government on very homo.
[00:11:58] But you know, that kind of [00:12:00] visible queerness and open lesbianism and same sex attraction, that was in early two thousands. Um, tattoo was the most popular band and it was also crossed over into United States. Mm-hmm. And that just really signified that there was a queer renaissance at that time in Russia.
[00:12:20] A lot of these artists, artists and performers, and Russian culture is inherently queer because there's a lot of very creative, uh, artistic outlets through it. And that's always been, you know, the, this space where queer people dominate. But you know, going back to your question, how do folks who come from Russia see queer culture here?
[00:12:41] In Russia, it's always been taboo. It's always been kind of kept under, or it's always been very coded. You know, there has been drag in very famous movies. Mm-hmm. You know, think Tootsie, but Russian films and a lot of Russian performers do highly elaborate, I would say [00:13:00] drag costumes. You know, they might not be in like full.
[00:13:02] Contoured highlighted phase, but it's very out there. But it's always coded in a way that it's always performance. It's not queerness. And for folks who come from Russia here, especially, you know, folks who are coming from Russia now, as opposed to, you know, 15 years ago before the passage of the, the gay propaganda laws, they come here and they see, I can tell you specifically about the Pride parades.
[00:13:28] You know, I. Lucky to lead the Brighton Beach Pride parade this year. But also we walked into N Y C Pride March, you know, the biggest one in the world. And we had our own column. And I can tell you that we had around 300 people. Um, don't tell the N Y C pride folks 'cause we were only supposed to have 75, uh, but who's counting?
[00:13:48] And we had 300 people. And I would say 90% of those 300 were people who came to the country less than a year ago. So brand new immigrants, this is their first pride. And the feeling that I've been hearing [00:14:00] from them. 'cause we, overwhelming sensation is safety. You know, the fact that they can proudly walk with rainbow flags, holding hands with a bunch of people like them down.
[00:14:13] You know, one of the most famous avenues in the world with millions of spectators, corporations behind it, music, tv, and then they can just walk free without the police attacking them without. Being hurled on without being, you know, thrown things at the police aspect is something that I've been hearing a lot, is that for people, and I know that queer community United States and police have a very, a very tense its own history.
[00:14:40] Obviously Stonewall was a rebellion against the police, but now, you know, for, for those Russian folks who come from a police state, which Russia is, that is enforcing systemic homophobia. For folks like that to see police. You know, being at Pride Mar walking in Pride, [00:15:00] having a co a police car with rainbows on it is just such a dissonant but euphoric feeling that give them a sense of safety that they've never experienced before.
[00:15:14] Shawn: So you mentioned propaganda laws in Russia. So the first. Is that around 2013? Yes. And then they were just recently updated. I wanna say that queer rights in Russia haven't always been as bad. No. As the situation is now, you correct me if I'm wrong, but I do feel like the past 10 years, maybe 15 of being particularly bad, Putin has taken a really hard line and as a result, the government has taken a really hard line.
[00:15:42] And I guess I've got a couple of questions for you. One is, I'm wondering if you have any insight as to what you think is actually happening here, because I'm not entirely sold on the fact that the initial thrust from Putin was pure gay animus as much as it was him trying to find an avenue [00:16:00] to shore up support.
[00:16:01] Mm-hmm. My other question then is, so what is life like for queer people in Russia right now? Today
[00:16:09] Maxim: A little history of that gay propaganda law or just Russia in the last 20 years. So when Soviet Union collapsed and Georgia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan all became their own countries. One of the first laws that Russia, uh, repealed was basically the law that banned homosexuality and would send queer people to consider Soviet Union, which people.
[00:16:38] Somehow are not aware. A lot of communists in people who identify as communists here in the United States like to overlook that fact. Mm. But that, you know, that was a law. You know, you, you, you couldn't be queer in, in Soviet Union. That was a crime. And then that's what was one of the first laws they repealed when Russia collapsed.
[00:16:58] The Soviet Union of Russia [00:17:00] became capitalist democratic system. And then we saw that that sparked. As I mentioned earlier, like queer renaissance. You know, I've heard from folks who are, I guess now in their forties, who are a member of the late nineties, early two thousands, saying that the best parties were always in the, were in the queer clubs, gay clubs.
[00:17:19] There was an incredible amount of freedom that was in the air. And queerness and embrace of queerness was one of the, I don't wanna say symptoms, but I guess the way that this freedom was felt among young people. As I mentioned, you know, in there was tattoo and we had famous drag artists, and there was a sense, and there was not, there was some conversation happen happening about queerness, but most of the, what the country was doing was slowly, slowly becoming okay with the idea of queerness, specifically homosexuality.
[00:17:56] Transgender rights are a bit different and we're gonna, and I'm gonna get [00:18:00] to it in a second. Mm-hmm. To answer how things are now. Then once Putin came to power back in 2012, because we had a very different, we had a different president between 2008 and thousand 12. We had Mitri Veev, yep. Who was, you know, appointed by Putin.
[00:18:16] And Putin was still Prime Minister and calling all the shots, but MiEV was kind of liberal. Now he is a, you know, a Fox newsy kind of mouthpiece. Ridiculous stuff. He's gone off the deep end. Yeah, he's, he jumped into the Mario trench hard. Yeah. Yeah. But he used to be relatively liberal and I remember when he was president there was a more of a sense of good western influences.
[00:18:43] That was also back when the economy was much better. You know, $1 was 30 rubles as opposed to 75 that it's now. So it was just, it was just a sense of freedom and Westernization Putin. It became very clear that things are about to shift dramatically. And [00:19:00] that was visible to me during his inauguration when there was no people inauguration and there was massive protests.
[00:19:08] And the protests were partially, you know, suppressed. I, I've seen people beaten in these protests. I've seen people arrested, and that was one of the heavy decisions that made me leave Russia and. 2010 was when they were, they passed the pedophilia, anti pedophilia law. Mm-hmm. Hardcore. But you know, kind of the same thing that we're seeing now here and happening in United States.
[00:19:34] Kind of the same logic of, you know, we're protecting the children, so we're coming through the pedophiles. However, as we've most religions, organized religions, there's a lot of pedophiles in the church. The law wasn't targeting them. The law was very explicitly targeting queer people, especially homosexual men.
[00:19:51] Mm-hmm. For the kind of the first seeds planted. People's and legislation. So that was the [00:20:00] first law that was passed. And then in around 2013, we saw this gay propaganda law coming from St. Petersburg, which is kind of ironic because St. Petersburg is a major cultural liberal center, I would say more cultural and much more liberal than even Moscow, which is ironically where Putin, Putin is from St.
[00:20:17] Petersburg. And there was this local politician, uh, vi. Who is this hardcore anti L G B T Q? Religious conservative who, if you look at him, he has a glory whole face. Like when you look at him, that's clearly a queen. That's clearly a closeted queen. But he introduced this law in St. Petersburg. He used that law mil to kind of get national Cloud as this.
[00:20:46] Voice, uh, against L G B T Q, and then he was elected to the federal government, and then that law became a federal law. So it started as a state law and became a federal law. Once those politicians came to the federal [00:21:00] government, the state government, you know, just, you know, you can think about what will happen if Ron DeSantis becomes president, kind of that day.
[00:21:08] And then they passed the. Very explicitly vague so that anything could be considered gay propaganda law. So what that law did was eradicate any mention of queerness on TV because that is public to the kids. So basically, if a kid sees any conversation about that could be exposed to it, it becomes a problem.
[00:21:33] Queer clubs continued to exist. Drag continued to exist, but it had to go into more of a hiding. That was kind of how things were for eight, nine years. And obviously things, the screws were being tightened here and there, but once the full scale invasion of Ukraine, uh, began in 2022. I remember at the very beginning when, before the war even started, there was a lot of conversation about whether the war is gonna happen or not.
[00:21:58] And there was a lot of articles in [00:22:00] the media about how there is a, a kill list of, uh, queer activists that Putin has in case he invades and overtakes Ukraine. There was a lot of conversation about that, and that is because, uh, queer people in Russia are some of the most vocal critics of the government.
[00:22:18] So to silence queer people is to silence a big chunk of the opposition. Once the war started, they pretty fast passed the law banning homosexual propaganda to all people. So it went from minors to adults and they passed a couple of other laws and they've actually enforced. They started to just be more proactive and aggressive in cutting out,
[00:22:47] seeing. Being inspired by the legislation United States. They came for trans folks. And I gotta tell you, trans people have had recognition, uh, and rights to exist as a trans person [00:23:00] almost going back to Soviet Union. Mm-hmm. Transition was something that was kind of, it was, it was a process that was happening.
[00:23:07] Um, it wasn't too politicized. Trans people were able to change their gender mark. They were able to have medication until basically this year when they started. In Russia, they started coming after trans people, kind of with the same surgical precision and intensity that the way that, uh, the Nazis under Hitler came for the very first institute that studied trans, uh, people and was performing gender, uh, Simon Care.
[00:23:31] So I think we as Ru see a lot of these queer, queer folks coming from Russia, you know, we've seen a major influx of, uh, queer couples, even with kids leaving, and I think we're expecting now the same way for trans folks. Why did Putin do it? I, I don't think Putin hates queer people. I think, I mean, maybe, maybe self-hate, you know, there's rumors that Putin himself is queer and not just, you know, somebody on the internet as a joke came up with rumors, but no, but [00:24:00] pretty credible allegations from somebody who knows Putin going back and who has written his books and kind of, you know, fill the gaps.
[00:24:09] As always does. You know some of the most vocally homophobic people are closeted queer people? Some, not all, but I think that Putin saw that queer people is still something that is so new and foreign to most of Russian people's mentalities, especially the people who've lived under Soviet Union for so many years.
[00:24:32] Ingrained in their, so he saw that people basically scapegoated if you go even 10, if you go to big cities, yes, it looks pretty. The systems were collapsing, the medical system was collapsing, the education system was collapsing. The roads, the electricity, just the, the, all the good infrastructure that was left from Soviet Union was not maintained and honestly, heavily neglected because of corruption.
[00:24:59] But Putin [00:25:00] was never interested in bettering the lives of his people or making Russia this powerful nation by building up its own society. So Putin kind of saw that. This is kind of the same thing that a lot of dictators do. They choose a small dictators and fascists. They choose a small minority that most people would not relate to 'cause they don't know somebody who's queer or they don't know somebody that trans, or they don't know that, or they actually do know those people, but they don't know that they are 'cause they're not out.
[00:25:33] So he was able to shift the perspective so that instead of complaining about the how bad the government is, Putin took. Russian people's homophobia to distract them from his own inability to govern. In Russia, they say gay opa, you know, like gay Europe. Mm-hmm. Basically, in a way to vilify the west to kind of diminish any progressive or technological [00:26:00] or quality of life developments that ha that you know you will find in Europe.
[00:26:05] Or United States or Canada or Mexico, or you know, the western world that you won't find in Russia, but then would you want to go to Europe? But they would call it gay because they have gay people. You know what I mean? So it's this kind of like, you don't want higher, higher quality of life because they have gay people who will come for your children.
[00:26:25] And that's kind of the political. Manipulation that Putin is doing, and I think he has his own feelings about queer people. But I gotta tell you, as somebody who grew up in Moscow and is, knows people in the queer scene in Moscow, if you're queer and you wanna have a good life, you either go to show business or you go to politics.
[00:26:47] Hmm. A lot of our politicians are queer. Our current speaker of the Duma, which is Russian, one of the Russian chambers of parliament. And lives is gay, and he [00:27:00] lives with another famous actor in Russia, one of our previous speakers, Vladis, who is one of Russia's most notorious politicians. He's like the Russian Trump who always said the most outrageous things.
[00:27:12] He was gay and he was once almost outed by Acho on national tv.
[00:27:21] Pop music. She called him out on, on stage in front of everybody during the debates in 2012 for the presidential election, saying that, you know, he likes, he likes to go to the sauna with young boys to understand Russia's treatment of queer people. You have to also understand the system that was created for queer people in Russia to sell themselves out and throw other queer people under the bus for their own protection and better.
[00:27:51] Shawn: As you're talking, I think there are some parallels, and you've talked a little bit about this to what's happening in the United States, and it's really difficult to draw like [00:28:00] a causal line because I think that at periods of time, it might look like the United States is mimicking what's happening in places like Russia as it relates to anti L G B T laws.
[00:28:11] In other ways, Putin might be taking lessons from what's happening in the states. I'm thinking of DeSantis, Florida. So it's really hard to distinguish like, you know, which came first, the chicken or the egg. But I do think right there are parallels here and I'm really struck by you saying that. The infrastructure and civil society were degrading in Russia long before it was obvious, because I've been saying, or these are conversations I've been having lately mm-hmm.
[00:28:41] About the United States that, mm, there's a lot of stuff that we're seeing, like chaff that's thrown in the sky that, you know, we look at and we say like, oh, this is terrible. What's happening in Florida or in Texas or in Tennessee, or what's happening to our democracy, or the rise of the far right, et cetera.
[00:28:55] If you really dig into like civil society in the United States, people [00:29:00] aren't getting their mail on time anymore and people can't get through to social security. There's a whole host of these types of things that seem to be just degrading. But that all being said, I do think to some degree Russia is more cohesive.
[00:29:16] On the national level with their anti L G B T Q legislation. Then so far we are in the United States and we've also seen in both countries, but we can point to a very horrific attack in Chechnya against an activist recently. And there's well-documented cases of, you know, regular vicious attacks on queer people in Russia as there, you know, there are accounts of that happening in the states as well, but I wonder your thoughts here.
[00:29:43] As you look at what's happening in the states, and we are starting to, or at least the Republican party, is starting to coalesce around this same sentiment that we're seeing in Russia. If you have any concerns that we might see significant spikes in not just the [00:30:00] protests, but violence against queer people.
[00:30:02] Maxim: You're not going easy on me here, Shawn.
[00:30:05] I'm sorry. It's okay. Great question. Here's what I'll say. Thank, thank God you're calling it consistent on a national level. In the homophobia in Russia, it's because Putin is, you know, the tar, the party, the policy dictators for the entire country. There is no deviations from, I mean there are uh, a little bit deviations from the four.
[00:30:29] The general policy, whether, you know, some places like Chena are just probably one of the most dangerous places for queer people. It's not just violence. Straight up murder them. They, they murder queer people. They find them in other cities and sometimes in other countries bring them back to Cheney and murder them.
[00:30:46] But Cheney is a very complicated, very, very complicated conversation. But I think that, you know, from a point of view of civil society, United States think, God, we have two party system. I mean, even the two party system is [00:31:00] not as good as. Multiparty system. System. But then again, there's always, we always know that to any action there is gonna be a reaction.
[00:31:07] The Republicans are gonna stand up to what the Democrats are doing and vice versa. Mm-hmm. I see a lot of similarities between what's happening in Russia and what's happening here in, in the respect of conservative politicians who are really bad at their jobs policy, their communities, and instead, The important stuff that would better of their communities.
[00:31:32] They choose to attack their people for the same scapegoating purposes. Mm-hmm. Why is Texas passing the most amount of anti-trans legislation when they have problems with their grid and people are dying in summer because it's too hot and they're dying in winter because it's too cold. Mm-hmm. And you know, Texas has one of the highest.
[00:31:56] Childbirth mortalities in, in, in the, in the world. [00:32:00] And instead of taking that legislative time to pass infrastructure bill that would rebuild their grid or pass some kind of a healthcare bill that would make sure that there are, that every hospital as an ob, G Y N. So we prevent women from dying in childbirth.
[00:32:17] Not even gonna anti-abortion sentiment, but they're taking the legislative time. They're taking taxpayers money, which is. You know, I am furious about that we as taxpayers are paying these people to go to state legislatures, to enact bills, and they're taking our money to waste time passing bills that are not benefiting anybody.
[00:32:42] It's just bad policy and it's bad politics. So I am being a little bit optimistic because I'm a registered Democrat. I'm not entirely happy with the Democratic Party, but at least the Democratic party is very quickly realizing that good policy is good politics. And I'm very grateful that the [00:33:00] Democrats with partnership of, what is it, 10 Republicans, 10 11 Republicans who voted for protection of marriage equality as much as they could.
[00:33:09] Mm-hmm. To do it on the federal level with the law that they passed earlier. You know, of course if somebody like DeSantis gets to the White House and Republicans take control of both House and Senate, it's gonna be absolutely terrible, um, for queer people, even in Democratic states because, The federal government can override and pass some federal laws, and then it is just, it can bring us to a brink of civil war.
[00:33:34] You know, if, for example, the sentence becomes president and they will pass a federal law banning gender affirming care for adults, what if New York passes the law that says like, no, we're actually gonna continue providing, you know, gender affirming care for adults and minors. And then what if the Santa Sense federal troops to, to the state, because we're not, New York is not enforcing federal laws like, you know, these are just the hypothetical scenarios I'm thinking about because this is, [00:34:00] now, this is, as you mentioned, the Republican party is now coalescing around this, which is kind of mind boggling to me.
[00:34:05] The fact that Republican party was always proudly more anti-Russia than Democrats and they, you know, think, make me think of folks like John McCain, who was always a hawk. Russia or Mi Romney, who we own an apology to Mi Romney. When Mi Romney said in 2012, and then Russia is the biggest geopolitical adversary of United States and Obama in the whole world laughed at him.
[00:34:26] Mm-hmm. He ended up being correct and Obama was wrong on most of the foreign policy from Iran to, uh, Libya, to Syria, to Crimea. So it's a new wave of the Republican party populists.
[00:34:43] These Republicans, you know, who would otherwise be called themselves? Moderates are falling behind Trump and the Freedom Caucus and embracing just the most cruel policies that are not even in line with their small [00:35:00] government, pro family, pro-life approach. They're embracing ideologies of government overreach.
[00:35:06] They're embracing ideologies of violence and lawlessness You. You know, letting folks who were a January 6th tool let them be, let them serving the police. That does make me scared. But I also look at political trends and, you know, the 2022 midterms gave me a lot of hope. You know, when we all were expecting it to be a red tsunami and a lot of Democrats held strong.
[00:35:33] And we even added a, a seat in the Senate. Mm-hmm. From a precedent, historical point of view, the, you know, the president's party never does well in the midterms, and then Republicans didn't do as well because I think Americans are rejecting the notions of ruling on hate, ruling on anti-abortion, ruling, on being on not supporting Ukraine, on not being pro uh,[00:36:00]
[00:36:03] The different and are giving me hope. And also the big difference I would say between Russia and United States is that in Russia, nobody fought. Mm-hmm. Nobody fought these anti L G B T LGBTQ laws. They, the L G B T Q agencies and organizations did, but they were never as united or as big or as powerful in Russia.
[00:36:21] So, you know, if, if in 2014 we had the entire show business and a lot of politicians coal together and like, no, we don't support these laws, maybe something would've changed, but, That's just not the, the system that Putin has set up very smartly. You know, he has made sure that every channel of mass media communication and swaying the show business, the news channels, the internet, were spewing his messages here in the United States.
[00:36:47] Why people fighting? We have a C L U filing, uh, court cases in all different states, and we're seeing that a lot of the courts are reversing these anti drag laws or anti-trans [00:37:00] laws. We have people here who are fighting and I am just hoping that people look at the historical examples of Hitler, but also at Russia and realize that what's at stake and we have to fight hard.
[00:37:13] Shawn: So I wanna pivot a little bit and talk about the war in Ukraine. Mm-hmm. Kind of hard not to. Yes. There's a huge Russian diaspora. The globe. And that's being exacerbated by the war in Ukraine, right? As yes. Russians are also fleeing, uh, their home country because of the war. You know, to my mind, it seems like Russians are in an.
[00:37:33] Awkward spot just by virtue of being Russian right now in the world. Mm-hmm. I, as a, as a, as a queer person, often feel like if I'm in a place that has no queer people, I have to carry the weight of the queer community. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure Russian folks are in the same position having to answer questions that, you know, they don't have answers for and don't necessarily agree with, but, I think there's an added challenge for queer Russian folks in many ways.
[00:37:57] They're victims of, you know, these anti L G [00:38:00] B T Q laws that we've talked about already in Russia. Then when they leave Russia, they're also at least now viewed skeptically in many parts of the world, primarily because of the war. And I guess I'm wondering if you're seeing any type of backlash or of the folks that you know that have left queer Russian folks, you know, how are they navigating this?
[00:38:17] Maxim: Another very complicated thing. Um, most of last year, a lot of my personal advocacy and activism work was focused on Ukraine and specifically painting Ukraine as a fighter for Q Rights as a fighter for democracy. Obviously the situation in Ukraine is still, a lot of work has to be done for them to be the queer fire bearer, uh, the torch bearer that we would want them to be.
[00:38:45] But I think the war is shifting a lot of people's in Ukraine and Ukrainians perspective on queer rise, just because they see homophobia as an aism of, you know, Russian colonialism, but also because a lot of queer. People in Ukraine [00:39:00] are fighting on the front lines. So I, my prediction is that once the war is won, the government will reward, uh, those queer people by giving them some kind of same sex union, uh, or even marriage equality the way that has been passed in the one of the Baltic countries very recently, in terms of Russians who are escaping Russia because of the war in Ukraine, I know a lot of people, especially people who have left.
[00:39:24] Russia, Russia, right at the beginning of the war. They were like, you know what? We're packing our bags and going, we A cannot continue to live in a country that is perpetuating genocide against Ukrainians B. We don't feel safe ourselves because the writing is on the wall That. Once they occupy Ukraine, they're gonna go even more Nazi within their own country because Putin's a big, big dream is to bring back Soviet Union.
[00:39:50] Not just territorially, but ideologically and socially. I've seen a lot of backlash to Russians last year [00:40:00] and even this year because to some Ukrainians, every Russian is an enemy. I, I was in a similar predicament. Last year when I had to work harder as a Russian person to showcase my allyship and eventually Ukrainians saw that I am supporting them and they embraced me and we, we did a lot of, some really incredible awareness work.
[00:40:20] But last year I had this thought a lot. I was like, is this what it felt like to be an anti Hitler German in 1939? You know, how did those people feel who were vehemently against Hitler policies, but you know, couldn't do anything about it. My family, my mom, my grandma, my, my everybody in my family has always been anti Putin and very pro Ukraine right now.
[00:40:44] Um, my mom and my sister are currently in Russia, so they have to be very careful about how they talk about this. I've seen a lot of skepticism last year. It is getting better this year, uh, towards help of, uh, Russian queer people. But I'm, [00:41:00] I think that in United States particularly, uh, because there. This ingrained anti-Russia sentiment.
[00:41:09] I've been asked ever since I moved, I moved to the United States in 2012, that, oh, Russia is so bad for gay people, which I've always like, this is not a conversation I wanna be having. This is a Wendy's ma'am. Um, but now I understand that because there has been that social infrastructure of labeling.
[00:41:27] Russia not safe space for queer people. Americans have a lot more acceptance and empathy for Russian queer people and the work that Rusa is doing, which has been very handy when we have to advocate on behalf of Russian asylum seekers and refugees. A lot of people like, you know what we, we know what's happening in Russia.
[00:41:50] I think it's very important for people to understand. That Ukrainians and queer Russians are suffering from the same system of fascism. We can draw a direct [00:42:00] line between Putin's invasion of Ukraine and Putin's homophobic laws. It's the same system of, uh, suppression of anybody who's different, who does not want to confined to that Russian identity that Putin is shaping.
[00:42:16] There is still some tension between Ukrainians and Russians. Even now. There's been famously Ma Gsen, who is arguably the most famous Russian non-binary person in the world. Mm-hmm. A writer for the New Yorker, a pioneer who's been very outspoken against Putin and pro queer. Even back when they used to live in Russia, they were recently kicked off of a panel, I think for New York Times or somewhere else because Ukrainians have complained.
[00:42:42] We don't want to be performing alongside Russians. Mm-hmm. Even though that Russian is pro Ukraine, I'm not gonna put blame on Ukrainians. I understand that their countrys being bombed by Russia, so they have every right to feel how they feel. But it's also not really fair [00:43:00] to those Russians who've been anti-war, anti Putin, pro Ukraine, pro-freedom consistently.
[00:43:08] The brunt, but I guess that if we're talking about cultural responsibilities, you know, I guess we all have, I can tell you that in Europe, the situation is not as states. A very strong anti-Russian sentiment. Mm-hmm. There's this organization called L G B T, world Beside, and they are a Russian speaking organization for queer people in Amsterdam.
[00:43:32] They're actually led by a Chechen man. His name is Harlem. Hey Harlem. If you're listening to this, um, he doesn't speak English, so probably not, and I've talked to him that there is now, that the Dutch Parliament has just changed the laws for how Russian people can apply for asylum and come and they basically can't.
[00:43:52] So Russian queer people have a very hard time getting to Europe because the anti-Russian [00:44:00] sentiment is stronger than a lot of these countries. Sympathy for queer people within Russia, which I personally find incredibly hypocritical, but also lazy. It, it, uh, you just don't want, you just don't seem to bother about actually helping people.
[00:44:16] I just also, it's why would you let. Young, healthy, creative, queer people, doesn't matter from where they're from, who want to escape their country and come to yours, they can help grow your economy. They can bring their talent, they can bring their innovative, you know, every country should want young, creative people to come to them.
[00:44:34] That is such a resource. So for Europe is not there because Europe is having a lot of their own issues. I can also tell you personally, My family has experienced a lot of anti-Russian nationalism in Austria, where my mom's dad has been living for the past 40 years. My mom's father passed away a couple of months ago, and my mom being in Russia had to go to [00:45:00] embassy in Austrian embassy in Moscow and begged them to give her a visa to go see her dad and sell the apartment.
[00:45:09] They gave her a visa for three weeks. Have you ever heard of anybody giving anybody a visa for, imagine your parent passed away and they're, and the government is only giving you three weeks visas to take care of that. That's just inhumane. Mm-hmm. But that's something that, you know, we've been experiencing, we've been seeing, I've been personally seeing these are personal anecdotes of my family and my work that I can tell you.
[00:45:35] So I'm very grateful that United States is a bit better in terms of accepting queer Russian folks, but also we have a pretty big, uh, diaspora around the world of Russian people. I was talking to an journalist this week who, who's writing a story on this, and he told me that Russians are currently the third largest block of immigrants coming to United States.
[00:45:58] It's not even Ukrainians, [00:46:00] Ukrainians this year, it's Russian. It's an actual thing that requires more context, requires more empathy, and I think it's incredibly important to see these people as refugees, as asylum seekers who are escaping violence for being queer, for experiencing violence, for being queer in Russia, who are trying to find peace and safety and respect and acceptance here in United States, but also in other countries.
[00:46:31] Shawn: So how can people, perhaps people listening, support Russ's work?
[00:46:35] Maxim: People can donate to us. We are a nonprofit who runs on donations, on grants, and that money goes to us providing individual help to folks. We give out money for people so they can take a train ride or get food. We buy notebooks for, we can provide folks with notebooks so they can work.
[00:46:54] We connect them with lawyers, we connect them with housing. Just some of the stories that we hear from [00:47:00] people is just, oh. The amount of trauma and journey that these people have to go through. You know, some people have to go through 12 countries just to get to the United States. Mm-hmm. Support our work.
[00:47:13] Follow us on Instagram, spotlight us. Tell, tell your friends about us because Russia is an incredibly dangerous place for queer people. And if we don't support the work that highlights that and supports those queer people coming here, This might very well happen in the United States. If you want to fight fascism, you have to support and help people who are running away from fascism and you know, systemic homophobia in different countries.
[00:47:42] Okay.
[00:47:43] Shawn: Final question. Are you ready for it?
[00:47:45] Maxim: Mm-hmm. Let's, I don't know if I'm ready, but find out. Yeah, we'll find out.
[00:47:51] Shawn: What's something interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to, or doing lately?
[00:47:55] Maxim: Ooh, I started watching the idol. [00:48:00] Controversial.
[00:48:01] Shawn: Oh, yeah, yeah. With the weekend. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:48:04] Maxim: With the weekend.
[00:48:05] I only watched one episode. I. Something that I've been listening to a a lot lately and something that's been giving me a lot of, uh, motivation and hope. I love listening to Ukrainian musics. There's, they have an incredible amount of amazing performers like Kaska and, and a lot of other performers who are just so incredible at taking Ukrainian folk music, which is such a symbol of national pride and resistance, and they add a modern twist to it.
[00:48:38] Like, you know Nia, which won Eurovision last year. Yeah, yeah. The Kalu Orchestra, they make incredible music, so I like to listen to that music just because it gives me, it's fun, it's beautiful, but it also gives me a feeling of spirit and motivation that is very much appreciated and needed lately and always.
[00:48:57] Shawn: I'm glad you mentioned Eurovision. This was the first year I ever [00:49:00] watched it. I happened to be in UK this year. Oh, wow. And you know, it's not a big deal in the States, so I, I just wasn't like, it's not part of my culture, but, so I watched it. Did you mention Dvorchy from Ukraine this year?
[00:49:12] Maxim: Yes. They were incredible.
[00:49:14] Shawn: Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a fun thing. I don't quite get it. 'cause it only, you know, it's like, like semi-finals and then the final, I don't get it. Yes. I couldn't stop watching. It was very cool.
[00:49:23] Maxim: Yeah. It's, uh, you know, American Idol, but if every contest was, you know, from a different country. I can tell you that I've done some work with Eurovision.
[00:49:35] I've hosted Eurovision of viewing parties last year and this year. Mm-hmm. In New York. I can tell you that Eurovision is becoming more of a thing in, in among Americans, especially queer people because it's just such a queer event, you know? Yeah. It's so many out queer people. It's very cam, a lot of. Pop music and just really cool stuff.
[00:49:56] Uh, and you know, an era of acceptance and love. [00:50:00] And I can tell you last year there was only five Eurovision viewing parties happening in New York. This year there was 17. Oh wow. So it's definitely a growing culture. As Eurovision is expanding, they have Australia now participating. So it's becoming a global phenomena.
[00:50:18] It's fun for sure.
[00:50:19] Shawn: Yeah. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me today.
[00:50:25] Maxim: I would absolutely love to be back and thank you for giving us the platform and please support Russa's work at rus lgbtq org and on our Instagram, lgbtq.
[00:50:42] Shawn: My conversation with Maxim reminded me of two documentaries that I've seen recently that really tap into some of the themes. We discussed things like War Anti L G B T, oppression and violence. Leaving your home, being stateless and loss. One of these is welcome [00:51:00] to Chechnya, a film by David France that documents the state of queer life in Chechnya by exposing state sanctioned violence against the L G B T community and highlighting the high stakes work of L G B T activists in the region.
[00:51:14] The other is a short documentary by the New York Times about Ukrainian children who have lost a parent in the war. It's called What is War to a Grieving Child. Full disclosure, both of these films are hard to watch. They're gut-wrenching and heart-rending. And honestly for their rawness, I almost didn't get through them, but I'm wondering if the complacency and dismissiveness, sometimes belligerently, so of our contemporary western lives is fueled by the fact that we've crafted an isolated world that precludes us from seeing and experiencing some of the existing horrors of the world.
[00:51:50] In the United States and Europe, we are generations into peace. Most of us are thankfully devoid of family members and friends that have directly experienced violent [00:52:00] oppression or war. Our lives have not been touched by these things, and so we are emotionally removed from the devastation and the horror that these things that still exist in many places in the world are inflicting on innocent people.
[00:52:14] And not only do we no longer have any direct and personal relationship with tragedy, We can also tune it out, change the channel when it happens, and we do. We float through life crafting a world in which there is no horror, there is no suffering. And in that world, why would we ever go out of our way to help?
[00:52:34] The same week that the Titan Submersible imploded off the eastern coast of the United States in late June, killing five. A boat carrying about 750 Pakistani, Syrian, Egyptian, and Palestinian refugees and migrants, including children and infants sunk off the coast of Greece while authorities watched did not intervene from a near distance of those 750, only about a [00:53:00] hundred people were rescued alive.
[00:53:02] This story failed to capture our attention in any meaningful way. This is a perfect, tragic example of our ability to close our eyes to horror. I wonder if this is part of the reason that we're experiencing such a quick rise of the far right around the globe because we've lost the critical ability to empathize.
[00:53:20] The violent rhetoric and oppressive policies of these extremists just doesn't register because we, one, have no direct experience with the consequences, and two, feel like we can just look away without these two components. We have no North Star anymore. I don't know what the answer is, but I think we need to be willing to be uncomfortable to, at minimum, be willing to bear witness to some of these awful things happening to people around us.
[00:53:49] We need to rebuild that muscle of empathy and community responsibility. This is why I watched the documentaries, not because I'm into trauma porn, but because I need to be [00:54:00] reminded that as comfortable as my life is, it's a nightmare for other people and I can help in some way. Imagine if we all did, if we were all willing to bear witness, it might make a bigger difference than you think.
[00:54:13] Links to the documentaries I mentioned are in the show notes. Alright, check back soon for another episode of Deep Dive. Chat soon folks.