Bernard Schlager - The Bible is Not a Weapon (And a ChatGPT Parable for Queer Kids)

Have you ever felt the weight of fear when your spirituality seems to contradict your identity? This episode addresses the intricate relationship between faith and queerness, as we delve into the profound emotions and experiences that come with growing up queer in the church. Dr. Bernard Schlager, associate professor of Historical and Cultural Studies and Executive Director of the Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies in Religion at Pacific School of Religion, joins me to share his valuable insights on this topic.

We dissect not only the conflicts and tensions within religious spaces but also explore the potentialities of queer spirituality, how religious texts can be interpreted, and the importance of creating safe faith exploratory spaces for queer individuals. This genuine exploration of the queer experience within the context of spirituality and religion aims to instigate conversations, questions, and a broader understanding of the intersection between queerness and faith.

What does it mean to find comfort and community in faith as a queer individual? We examine the need for open and inclusive religious spaces, the complexities of interpreting religious texts concerning queer identities, and how easily differing beliefs can be demonized. Also, we reflect on the invaluable role of pastoral care for the queer community, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and celebrating queer people as valuable members of religious communities. Tune in for an enlightening dialogue that bridges the seemingly disparate worlds of queerness and faith.

And, ChatGPT does something the Bible does not - writes a parable in which Jesus explains to a young child why his queerness ensures him a place in Heaven.

Recommended:
Ministry Among God’s Queer Folk: LGBTQ Pastoral Care - Bernard Schlager and David Kundtz

Mentioned:
Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality - John Boswell
Not a Tame Lion
Love Tenderly: Sacred Stories of Lesbian and Queer Religious - Grace Surdovel and Jeannine Gramick
Punch Me Up to the Gods - Brian Broome
Queer as Fact Podcast

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Transcript

Dr. Schlager: 0:00

spirituality is much broader than the confines of any religious tradition, and so I tend to believe that queer people throughout history often have a not always, but often have a unique spiritual dimension to their lives. Whether it means entering a mosque or synagogue or temple or church, it kind of doesn't matter. So I think there is, and I want to essentialize who we are as queer people. But queer people have often been and often are spiritual leaders or seers or guides, or have a, you know, perhaps because of our own experience of being the other, our own experience of being demonized, our own experience of looking at the world differently, so that we can survive from day to day or that we can learn how to thrive in our own lives, you know, we have a unique sense, whether we believe in a God or not.

Shawn: 0:57

Welcome to Deep Dive with me, s C B. If you've been following the podcast and you should be you know that I was raised in a religious household, went to church on Sundays, sometimes other days of the week, had a friend group that consisted pretty much solely of people from the church. My social life was pretty much church functions, etc. And in addition to all of the great things that living a Christian life could give me, I was also taught about all of the things that could damn me to hell for eternity if I were to do them lying, cheating, murder, etc. You know all the commandments, but the church is also sneaky. There are a lot of other things that can send you straight to hell that aren't always readily clear and sometimes seem to be made up kind of ad hoc. So that was a bit scary. But the one thing that really scared me was being gay. I knew I was in trouble with the church before I knew I was gay. Something about that rule that being gay equals hell just dug its way into me and over a handful of years it grew inside me like a cancer shame and fear that, frankly, just closed the church off to me. I pulled away from people, I stopped attending. I started looking for friends and relationships outside of the church because, remember, I didn't even know I was gay, but something about that no gay rule just made it clear to me that this life wasn't going to last. It wasn't sustainable.

Shawn: 2:20

And in prep for this interview today, which I'll talk about in a bit, it got me thinking about what I was feeling as a child, hearing that homosexuality would bar me from heaven. And actually I think that what I was realizing was that there are things about people over which we have no control and doesn't equate to badness in us, but that nonetheless precludes us from heaven, that damns us to hell. That's a really horrible thing to realize, to know, I mean, what do you do about something you can't control? So I've been trying to remember what it actually felt like that my entire life, as I knew it, would come to an end, that I was going to hell, that God didn't love me because he supposedly knows us better than we do. So if I was gay, well, god already knew, so why bother trying to stick it out? And that everyone that loved me would eventually hate me. And it got me thinking about how it could be if homosexuality was handled differently by the church if the Bible was more explicitly supportive. But that reality doesn't exist.

Shawn: 3:21

So I turned to artificial intelligence and asked ChatGPT to write me a parable about Jesus meeting a child who's worried about getting into heaven because he's gay. And when I first read this, what ChatGPT wrote for me, I really imagined what it would have meant to me to have heard this as a scared child wrestling with the fear that I would lose family and friends and stability over something I couldn't control. It would have given me great comfort if this is what the Bible had said. And so in the King ChatGPT Bible, it is written that in the days of his earthly sojourn, jesus walked upon the earth as a beacon of light and love, his compassion embracing all who sought his guidance. One day, as the sun set upon a small village, jesus came across a young child sitting by a tree, tears streaming down his face like the gentle rain that waters the earth. Child, why do you weep? Jesus, asked his voice carrying a melody of empathy. The child looked up, startled, yet comforted by the presence of the compassionate stranger. With a quivering voice, he replied I'm alone and broken, picked on by my classmates for being different, and my parents have disowned me because I, like other boys. I fear that my heart's truth will keep me from entering heaven.

Shawn: 4:39

Jesus knelt beside the child, his eyes brimming with the understanding of the child's pain. He placed a hand on the young one's shoulder and said listen, my beloved, you are a cherished creation of the divine and your heart's essence is pure and true. Heaven does not bar its gates to those who love with sincerity. The child gazed into Jesus's eyes, a glimmer of hope shining through his tears. Yet a doubt lingered in his heart and he whispered. But how can I be sure? Jesus smiled with a warmth that could melt the coldest heart. Let me show you a sign, he said, and he extended his hand. The child hesitated, then placed his tiny hand in Jesus's gentle grasp. They walked together towards a nearby pond and with a gesture of his hand, jesus transformed the water into a mirror that reflected the stars above. Look into the water, he instructed, and see your true self.

Shawn: 5:36

As the child peered into the pond's surface, a miraculous transformation occurred. His reflection shifted and he saw not his physical form but his heart laid bare. He saw the love he held for others, the kindness he extended and the resilience he embodied. Despite the challenges he faced, he saw his true essence, untouched by the judgments of the world. Overwhelmed with a sense of wonder, the child turned to Jesus. How can this be? Jesus spoke gently. When you look into the hearts of others and see their pain, when you offer your love without reservation and when you embrace your own authenticity, you partake in a miracle, the miracle of love. And it is this love that bridges heaven and earth, and it's this bridge that you will cross from here into heaven one day. The child felt a warmth envelop his heart, replacing the shadows of doubt with rays of hope. With a newfound strength, he stood taller. His tears of pain now transformed into tears of joy. Jesus embraced him and together they walked back towards the village, a bond of understanding and acceptance forged between them. And so the tale of the young child and Jesus spread throughout the land a parable of compassion, love and the miraculous realization that, in embracing our true selves and extending kindness to others, we find the key to heaven's gate.

Shawn: 7:03

All right, today I'm talking to Dr Bernard Schlager, associate Professor of Historical and Cultural Studies, as well as the Executive Director of the Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies in Religion at Pacific School of Religion. His research and his writings focus on queer studies, the history of Christianity, lgbtq pastoral care and medieval social and religious history. His book, co-authored with David Kuntz, ministry Among God's Queer Folk LGBTQ Pastoral Care, is a great read for religious and secular folks alike. It gave me a lot to think about and really set me on course for our discussion. Today. We talk about the intersection between the queer community and Christianity my own skepticism, maybe, some of the other skepticism, maybe cynicism about the church if Christianity is becoming more militarized, how queer folks can meaningfully engage with the church without being second-class members, how the Bible and its teachings might be interpreted differently and if there's a hopeful future for the church to be more inclusive.

Shawn: 8:06

If you like this episode, or any episode, please give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. And, as always, if you have any thoughts, questions or comments, please feel free to email deepdivewithshawn@gmai. e . Let's do a deep dive, d Schlager. thanks for being here. How are you?

Dr. Schlager: 8:31

I'm doing well. Thank you for the invitation, S.

Shawn: 8:35

Yeah, for sure. I've been wanting to have this conversation for a while for two reasons. First, you know I've become particularly skeptical of organized religion kind of across the spectrum, for a handful of reasons, but I grew up in a religious household and you know that dynamic or that friction still impacts me today. And then, second, you know I really respect your work and your writings about these things, especially about the intersection between queerness and Christianity and how these two things don't have to be in conflict, despite what I think is a dominant narrative that contributes to an environment that a lot of people find themselves in, that I find myself in one of almost kind of like a battle between religion and sexuality. So I'm really excited to have you here to talk about some of this stuff.

Dr. Schlager: 9:14

Well, thank you, good to be here.

Shawn: 9:16

So when I think about the intersection between the LGBTQ community and religion, I think about it from two angles, two directions, you know, to the same relationship. And one is you know how religion interacts with the LGBTQ community, and then the other is the reverse, so how the LGBTQ community interacts with religion, so as it relates to that. First, so how religion interacts with the LGBTQ community. Like I said, or alluded to, I'm kind of jaded.

Shawn: 9:41

I grew up in a religious household, you know, and before I was actually told that religious or Christian teaching is that homosexuality is a sin, was just kind of clear that it wasn't acceptable.

Shawn: 9:52

And then, as I was kind of coming into my own identity, figuring out who I was, when the church at the same time so this was really during the 80s seemed to take a more politicized turn against the LGBTQ community, right, I developed a lot of anger toward the church and I left it. I've always had this kind of toehold in it, but I'm not practicing in any way and I don't think this is unique to a lot of folks in the queer community. No, I agree, I agree. Is there an argument to be made? And maybe this is me grasping at straws, I'll admit that, but that leaders of organized religion that suggests that homosexuality is a sin and also may be punishable by death, have misinterpreted scripture, that they've just gotten it wrong. And if they haven't, if this is a true interpretation of scripture, then I guess how could there ever be any space for LGBTQ people to worship without being somehow second class?

Dr. Schlager: 10:41

Yeah. So you're beginning with your first query. A word I love about how religion interacts with queer communities and how queer communities interact with religion. They're not, of course, separate worlds, right? Queer people I'll just use queer if that's okay. So queer people have always been involved in religious communities. Yes, we have often been persecuted, yes, we have often been the other, but there are these long histories of involvement, right? So queer people have been members, they've been leaders, they've been spiritual guides, they've been advocates within religious traditions and, of course, we have to be really specific about what we're talking about when we talk about religion.

Dr. Schlager: 11:21

My own context and my own area of teaching is within Christian tradition, so I think that's where I'm most comfortable talking with regard to queer people, and so we have to then, of course, delineate within that there are, yes, there are denominations that speak of queer people as sinful, as somehow disordered, that perhaps you know, maybe an identity of being queer is okay, but God forbid, literally, that you act on any of that in terms of sexual activity. And there are many denominations within Christianity that are you know, the terminology changes but that are open and affirming, right. So I think there are very few, but there are some Christian groups within the United States or within North America, western Europe and elsewhere in the world. Frankly, that would say that queer people should be killed. There are some, but just in reference to your mention of that, I think that is not a. You know, that is a really outlying point of view, certainly in North America, europe and in other parts of the world.

Dr. Schlager: 12:29

But yes, there is a tension for us queer people in many religious institutions because they have, or Christian tradition has historically, not always, but developed of course, a demonization of queer people and stoked fears about queer people. And I agree, today we see in some forms of Christianity actually in the United States, forms of Christianity that seem to get the most media attention, right, because they're its news, right Some can have draconian views about queer people, who we are, how we deserve punishment, etc. Etc. But again, you know, just, and I'll try not to do listing, but in North America we have many traditions in Christianity that are open and affirming, welcoming of queer people. You know I can just name a few right, the Episcopal Church, evangelical Lutheran Church of America. You know, the Church of Canada, disciples of Christ. It goes on and on and there's Reform Judaism, reconstructionist Judaism, presbyterian Church, usa.

Dr. Schlager: 13:31

So there are now decades-long tradition of groups of Christians struggling with what homosexuality is. Is it forbidden? And these, all of these denominational groups, have come to the point of affirming queer people as equal to non-queer people. Yes, it has caused tension. It has caused disagreement. One example is to look at the United Methodist Church. It is an international denomination that is splitting up today around the issue of homosexuality. So it's not that it's tension-free. So I would say that we're in a changing landscape. There is not one, of course, monolithic religion, nor is there a monolithic Christianity, and there never have been. You know, monolithic Christianity, even at some high area of expertise, is, strangely, perhaps, medieval Europe, and we see a shift there in the way in which we can define queer people being treated. So it's complicated, right.

Shawn: 14:27

Yeah, I mean it is, but I think you're making a distinction that, frankly, I didn't, which is that there are queer-affirming branches of religion, and that makes me wonder, though is it just that traditional religion, which I call dominant, but traditional kind of interpretations of religion and traditional branches of religion?

Dr. Schlager: 14:47

it just that?

Shawn: 14:47

the they're they're they're they're sucking the oxygen out of the room? Or are the more affirming branches just so small that they're not receiving the appropriate attention? Because and the reason I ask this is because it just seems like we're inundated, especially in the last couple of years, with this idea of an interpretation of what Christianity is and it's not affirming, and I just don't, I don't see a counter narrative to that.

Dr. Schlager: 15:15

Yeah, I think we who live in progressive wings of Christianity perhaps have not done as good a job as we should be doing around spreading the message that in fact there are affirming Christian groups. I don't know what tradition you come out of, if it's Protestantism or Catholicism or Lutheran Lutheran, okay. So Missouri Synod, wisconsin Synod, evangelical Lutheran oh, wisconsin. So Wisconsin Synod is the most conservative of the Lutheran branches, right? So if you take the largest, the evangelical Lutheran Church of America, and that Lutherans are, as you know, a small percentage of the population of the United States. But if you take the evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the largest denomination, that now has strongly affirmed the ordination of trans, bi, lesbian and gay candidates, and they have for a while. There are Lutheran congregations in the ELCA that are welcoming and affirming many and perhaps most, I don't know. Wisconsin would be like the Southern Baptist Convention or Assemblies of God, which do not affirm gay people, do not permit them to be ordained. Right, and I would also say that. So I come out of Roman Catholicism, I still consider myself Catholic. That is the largest denomination still, I think, in the United States. Interestingly, if you looked at people who have left the Catholic Church in the United States. If they were a group, they'd be the second largest denomination in the United States. But even within Roman Catholicism, there are many parishes in the United States that welcome LGBT people.

Dr. Schlager: 16:53

Is the official theology of Roman Catholicism anti-queer? Absolutely? Is that changing, perhaps? So there is a synod coming up in Rome where people are gathering around the world to discuss matters of faith and practice, etc, etc. Some of the people that have been invited include people like James Martin, this Jesuit priest who founded this organization called Outreach that is welcoming and affirming of LGBTQ Catholics and is written on it. He's been invited there. It is very Catholic, but two of the Cardinals who are attending the Cardinal Tummi of Newark, new Jersey, and a brand new Cardinal McElroy of San Diego they have come out with strong support for LGBTQ people. So things can change and no one can predict what's going to happen in an institution as big and messy as the Roman Catholic Church. But there are signs of shifts. Now that shifting can seem painstakingly slow etc, etc. But McElroy I heard a podcast a few weeks ago where he said he thought that this language of homosexuality is an objective disorder which is put into the Catholicism 30, 40 years ago is a mistake and it needs to be changed. So there is change. Are some of these denominations smaller? Perhaps that is true, yet even a large denomination like the Southern Baptist Convention is shrinking in size.

Dr. Schlager: 18:25

I don't say that with any kind of sense of joy, but I am joyful to know that reliable polls show that younger members of the Southern Baptist Convention are moving toward, and I believe it's a majority now of people in their 20s who identify as Southern Baptist, who believe that the position on LGBTQ people, the official position of Southern Baptist Convention, is not correct. So that gives me hope. It's not to deny that there still are official positions on homosexuality that are damaging. It's not to deny that people are not welcome and are demonized. It's not to deny that, in particular what we're seeing lately among trans youth and trans children and trans adults. They are now becoming a new scapegoat, but I think that ships are happening, even if the media doesn't report it.

Dr. Schlager: 19:14

And then let me say one other thing that I'll let you get a word in edgewise here, but I'm hopeful to know that the majority of Americans now, and this includes people in many religious traditions, believe that same-sex marriage is a good for US society. That's shocking to me in many ways, because when I was growing up I was born in 1960, I'm 62 years old now when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, someone had told me that there would be marriage allowed between two women or two men. I would have thought that that was absolutely ridiculous. I would never live to see the day, and in this current Congress it's hopeful to me that there are 13 voting members that are bisexual, lesbian or gay. So perhaps I'm looking at the world sometimes through rose or purple colored, lavender colored glasses, but I do think that there is reason for hope.

Dr. Schlager: 20:09

And yes, as you've mentioned, this picture of Christianity and religion is being thoroughly anti-queer. There's some truth to that, but there's complexity, right, and religion can change. Beliefs sometimes were told. Well, this can never change because people have always read the book of Leviticus in this way, or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, these two references to the Hebrew Bible, or, as Christians call their Old Testament. That can't change. A couple of ways that can be answered is most biblical scholars who use a contemporary way of viewing the Bible both as God's word but also as a historical document will read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah not as a condemnation of same-sex behavior, but as a condemnation of not being hospitable to strangers in a desert environment.

Dr. Schlager: 21:01

And something else that gives me hope is that for centuries and centuries and centuries, the Christian church it's better, probably to say Christian churches supported the enslavement of other human beings. Right, I mean, you read the Christian New Testament and Paul says you know, slaves should obey their masters. You know, I'm guessing, if you had said to a Christian in the ancient world that this is going to change, they would have said that's ridiculous. Slavery is a part of human society and yet, even though there still is enslavement, we know, of human beings around the world, I don't think you can find you'd be hard-pressed to find a Christian denomination or congregation anywhere in the world that would support human slavery. And yet there's biblical support for that.

Dr. Schlager: 21:47

I say that, of course, to say that teachings on sexuality can change. You know, the role of women in denominations in some denominations has changed. There are women ministers in mainline Protestantism. You know, in the evangelical Lutheran Church of America, right, a woman can be ordained as a pastor and views on sexuality have changed and they can change. There are denominations that welcome divorce and remarried members right Back into the fold, so to speak. 70 years ago that would have been probably not possible in many denominations.

Dr. Schlager: 22:20

And one other example that I'd like to point out as a medievalist is that if you had said to many Christians in the ancient world, you know, it's okay, really, to lend money at interest, the response would have been no, it's not. The Bible is very clear, especially the Old Testament, the Christian Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible. You cannot lend money at interest. God doesn't want that. And yet the Christian Church in the medieval period, later medieval period, provides theological rationale for saying you know what, you can lend money at interest, you know so. Christianity can change. I'm hopeful that it will change.

Dr. Schlager: 22:58

Change is slow, too slow in many regards, and I personally, for what it's worth, as one individual, find a response of I'm going to leave the church because of the ways in which it has demonized queer people, continues to demonize queer people and the ways in which it has caused suffering on the part of countless people. Leaving the church, I think, can be a sane, rational and a faithful position. Right, why stay in a group of people that is preaching such hate in its very worst form? I get that. I understand that. I think that can be a sensible way of living and being right.

Dr. Schlager: 23:40

And spirituality is much broader than the confines of any religious tradition, and so I tend to believe that queer people throughout history often have a not always, but often have a unique spiritual dimension to their lives. Whether it means entering a mosque or synagogue or temple or church, it kind of doesn't matter. So I think there is, and I want to essentialize who we are as queer people. But queer people have often been and often are spiritual leaders or seers or guides, or have a you know, perhaps because of our own experience of being the other, our own experience of being demonized, our own experience of looking at the world differently so that we can survive from day to day or that we can learn how to thrive in our own lives, you know we have a unique sense, whether we believe in a God or not. And then one final you know thing that comes to my mind and then I'll pause is that you know it's often said you can look forever in the writings of what Christians call their New Testament and find that Jesus had absolutely nothing to say about what we would perhaps today describe as queer sexuality, or step back queer people other than to say Jesus always embraced the other. Whether that was the Samaritan, whether that was women, whether that was, you know, the tax collector, whether that was a Roman centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant, you know without even coming to his house. And there are interesting queer interpretations you can guess on that story of who this servant was at his house. But Jesus has nothing to say on what we think of as queer identities and queer sexualities.

Dr. Schlager: 25:23

Does the important apostle Paul have things to say? Absolutely, he does. In the letter to Romans, right. He demonizes, you know, men who have sex with men, women who have sex with women. That's in the complexity of stories. St Paul also supports lower position in the church for women. St Paul also supports slavery. You know, I love this. It's probably apocryphal and she probably never said it, but the great abolitionist and spiritual leader, the African American soldier in her truth, right in the 19th century, supposedly said and I've heard it said by other people, but I like. I like this is that when she was asked about well, what about the support of slavery in the Bible? You know, in a time when the United States was grappling with our ongoing sin of racism and, at that point of slavery. She said that's not in my Bible. You know, slavery doesn't doesn't have room in my system of belief.

Shawn: 26:18

You touched on a lot of things, frankly, that I wanted to follow up on. I think maybe the first is you mentioned, you know Jesus and what Jesus has said about homosexuality, and this tracks maybe roughly with this thought process that I've been having lately that, admittedly, and I should say upfront, like I am not a religious scholar, I'm not a Christian scholar.

Shawn: 26:38

So this is just me pulling back to my childhood and trying to like, reframe or understand the context that you know I'm living in.

Shawn: 26:46

So it seems to me that there's an obvious, distinct difference between the New Testament and the Old Testament, even in how we order our lives right, like what the expectation is, and then there's a difference between Jesus and what Jesus said and then what God's expectations, particularly in the Old Testament, seem to have been.

Shawn: 27:06

Again, this is a rough distinction because, like as you said, there are certainly some folks in the New Testament that specifically condemned, you know, men who have sex with men, etc. But I do wonder about when we talk about this friction and we're seeing I want to dig into this a bit later as well you know what I think is a more militarized Christianity in the United States in the last couple of years. But before we get there, it does seem to me like we could maybe have two buckets here of people that are firmly in the bucket of, you know, roughly, the Old Testament, or how God wants us to order our lives, as interpreted, however, and that being one type of Christianity, and then another being perhaps roughly more New Testament and how Jesus lived his life and expects us to live our lives and that these two things are in opposition to each other. That, or at least in practice it seems to be how people interpret this seems to be in opposition. We see two types of Christians, depending on where they put more weight. Does that make sense?

Dr. Schlager: 28:14

Yeah, it does and what I think the initial thought that comes to my mind is and I don't believe you're saying this, but I want to be really clear in saying that the Hebrew Bible, or what Christians consider their Old Testament, and then the New Testament, right, the part that was created by, written by in a very short period of time by people who consider themselves followers of Jesus, right. It's not as if the Old Testament is bad, the New Testament is new. Christianity, for a long period of time, had thought of itself, and some still do, as, oh, you know, the Christianity replaces Judaism. You know the somehow Judaism is fulfilled in Christianity. Many Christians today, theologians and others, will say there still is a covenant between God and God's people, the Jewish people, right. And so it's not as if you can look to the Old Testament and say that's kind of the bad God or that's the God that represses sexuality, because that's not true. And so, yes, we do have in the New Testament St Paul, who's a very important figure, you know, one of the real founders of the Christian movement.

Dr. Schlager: 29:18

He himself was Jewish, right, he was a Pharisee. He does say in Romans, he does speak about men who have sex with men and women who have sex with women as being bad and deserving of death, even in which it can be interpreted. You can look at the book of Leviticus where it says you know a man who lies with another man, that that's deserving of death, right? So you do have these statements in there, and yet it's not true to say that somehow Jesus was a kinder, gentler Jewish person. Right, jesus was a Jew from the moment he was born until the time he was crucified, and so it's complexified. And yet, you know, to your question of two buckets, I think there are probably many buckets of people with regard to issues about sexuality in general, right, and so homosexuality, if you want to think of that, or queer identities and queer sexual activity, I think there are lots of different views on what that is. So I don't think it's a simple either or, and I think that you can find people who are traditional in many respects with regard to how they interpret the Bible who might believe that queer people should be open and accepted completely.

Dr. Schlager: 30:28

Right, I'm probably dancing around something here, because I don't think it's kind of an either or thing, and it's certainly not rooted in, you know, the New Testament offering a gentler approach to sexuality, because what's really interesting is that, although Jesus had nothing to say about, you know, what we consider to be queer identities and queer sexuality, jesus was super clear on prohibition of divorce. Jesus is really really clear on that. That, you know, except for a few reasons, adultery but except for a few reasons divorce is not permitted. It had been permitted within the Jewish tradition within which Jesus was raised. How do we think about that today? Right, I support people who decide that divorce is the best way to end a relationship right or transition a relationship. So I think what I see in our culture today, in US culture, which is right in the plural, is, yes, sexuality and, in particular, queer sexualities, have become a flashpoint of a way to otherwise a group of people, a way to shore up identities. You know it's similar, I think, around issues of abortion and choice with regard to reproduction. So I don't see it as an either or, but I do see it as an ongoing contentious issue which I believe you know we're moving in the direction of more openness and more you know, affirmation, if I can use that word, of queer people, not everywhere, not by all people. It's not divided necessarily by age, not even necessarily by denomination, so I think of my own identity as a Catholic right, so the official Catholic Church on teaching, rather the official Catholic Church teaching on birth control could not be clearer right Use of contraception, terminating pregnancies.

Dr. Schlager: 32:21

And yet the majority of Catholics in the United States don't hold that view. Don't hold those views, certainly with regard to use of contraception the vast majority of Catholics. So what does that mean? Does that mean that this majority of Catholics sometimes, you know, denigrated by some people's cafeteria, catholics choose it, picking and choosing what to believe, are not Catholics? Well, I don't believe so. And the Catholic tradition has always upheld the primacy of conscience. And so if one believes, say, in the issue of using contraception, one has thought this through, one has prayed about it, one has read scripture, one has talked to other people and come to the conclusion that use of contraception is a moral choice. Many of those people stay in the church, they continue to attend services. So I think it is queer identities. Queer sexuality definitely is a flashpoint, it is entwined with politics today and I think what we're seeing this is obvious is the doubling down on people with trans identities right, in particular children. They are now being demonized and they are the unacceptable, the most unacceptable, you know, letter in the LGBTQ universe.

Shawn: 33:30

You know, even as a kid, when I was learning what the Bible, or the stories in the Bible and kind of woven into that, was Christian principles and values, and I think so at the time, you know I was I was doing two things right, like so I was learning about my religion and what the expectations as a result were, and I suppose also what the rewards were.

Shawn: 33:52

But I was at the same time imagining society and life at the time right, the historical setting that this was taking place, and I've always struggled with how much of the Bible.

Shawn: 34:05

I think this is circular, reciprocal, which is, you know, the teachings of the Bible and the principles in the Bible and the values were informing society, but that society at the time was also informing religion. I wonder I don't know how I was to say this, except to say that maybe it hasn't aged. Well, I wonder if the Bible was being written today, if it could, the values, the principles, the teachings could all be maintained and yet still be updated to meet the challenges of our 2023 society that is maybe less restrictive but more appropriate to the society that we live in today. I mean, I think the same about the United States Constitution, right Like this was written 250 years ago. It doesn't really stand the test of time for the challenges that we're living in today, and I wonder if the Constitution would just be written differently to fit our society. I wonder if that resonates or if you have thoughts there at all.

Dr. Schlager: 34:56

Yeah, and so I'll begin by saying you know that I am not a Bible scholar and yet I am, you know, a practicing Christian who takes the Bible, I would say, as an inspired set of readings, right? So, having said that, yes, and I'm also a historian, so it is very much so. These are historical documents. Were it written today, yes, it would probably be written differently. Having said that, all of the religious traditions of the world have ancient texts, right, that are considered to be valuable and in some sense stand the test of time. So, having said that, yes, there are some aspects of the Bible that are outmoded. There may be Orthodox Jewish people, I know, strive to obey all of the hundreds, several hundred, laws of the. You know the Mosay or Coven, right? So the laws of Leviticus Most people do not, right? So, while someone could pick out something from Leviticus and saying that queer sexual activity is simple, it says so, right here. And yet many people don't honor Levitical prohibitions on the mixing of different kinds of fabrics. There are a whole bunch of things in there that we no longer take as something to live by, but I, as a Christian, believe that the core messages of the Bible are still very much useful. So I understand Jesus to be saying that there is a sense of justice that we are called to bring about in this world. And if you look at Jesus' ministry, who did he minister to? And with it was the poor, the people who were sick, those who were excluded from religion and society, those who were excluded from politics and, you know, social groups. He focused on women in particular, and so for me, that is what's relevant, not certain aspects that are more time bound than others, and I think the message of the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible is that there's a God of love. This God is involved in history. God always takes the side of the poor and the outcast. Are there moral codes by which we are to live? Yes, I mean, they're in there. I find more meaningful the sermon on the Mount, where Jesus says Blessed are the poor, blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are those who mourn, blessed are those who suffer. That, to me, seems to be a code worth living by.

Dr. Schlager: 37:19

Every text that human beings read is interpreted. No one can say oh, I really understand completely what the Word of God if that's how you want to think about it is saying. This is a document, I believe, written by human beings, inspired somehow by the divine, and there are many historical aspects that are time-bound. Do I believe that women should remain silent in worship, as some of the letters say in the Christian New Testament? Absolutely not. I wouldn't feel comfortable attending a worship service where women were not to speak, or where women couldn't preach, or where people of a minority status had to be up in the balcony I don't know in the choir loft or something like that.

Dr. Schlager: 37:59

So I think that there are some timeless messages in the Bible. There are many that are time-bound and don't make sense. But we do that in every tradition and I do not believe there's anyone. I can't remember the name of the book, but there was someone who attempted for a year if you heard about this in the United States to live by what seemed to be a literal interpretation of the Bible for one year. What he ate, what he wore. It was a pretty rough year. It just doesn't make sense, right?

Dr. Schlager: 38:28

So I believe that the great tradition of the Hebrew Bible is in the prophets, who call Israel back to their relationship with God, to taking care of those who are outcast. So it's a bit ironic and tragic that a religion begun by Jesus, and these followers, who were very much focused on the outcast and outsider, should be in the role of demonizing and creating people to other eyes and demonize. Is there a moral code? Yeah, there's a moral code. Why do we focus on sexual activity? Certainly, we want to behave as moral individuals in the sexual realm, but I believe, as I think many other people do, is that God created human beings in a wide diversity of color, a wide diversity of gender, wide diversity of all sorts of things, including how we see ourselves in our gender and who we're attracted to, and that's part of the rainbow of creation. And so we happen to live in a society that is very structured by an either or male or female binary.

Dr. Schlager: 39:35

Christians haven't always lived in that world right, the world of the New Testament had eunuchs in it. That doesn't belong clearly to an either or gender, and I happen to believe that, and I think with good evidence, that the Christian church was not always as antiquer as it seems to be now. One aside is that when I went to graduate school, the reason I wanted to study, where I studied and with whom I studied was because I'd read this book by this scholar named John Boswell, who wrote a book called Christianity, social Tolerance and Homosexuality in 1980. And his argument was he was a medieval historian, also a convert to Catholicism, died in one of the first waves of gay men in this country who died of HIV AIDS. But his argument in this book is that Christianity has not always been what we would now say to be anti-queer, is that there are many examples that you can look to throughout Christian history where the church was not focused on what we understand to be queer people, not demonizing queer people. He says even in another book that there are Christian traditions where people of the same gender took part in marriage ceremonies, especially with an Orthodox Christianity. So that gave me hope to think.

Dr. Schlager: 40:48

You know, boy, what I've heard is inaccurate. It doesn't have the whole picture, and there is something about Christianity that has often tended to want I can't speak in that way but where Christianity itself doesn't want things, but where Christians have demonized one another. And you look at the great reformations of the 16th century, the ways in which Christians in German speaking Europe were killing one another over their interpretation of what it meant to be a follower of Jesus. Right, that certainly doesn't have biblical foundation, although both sides thought they were right. You know, today we don't have I think though we I know we don't have those kind of boards between Protestants and Catholics, and yet sexuality is a flashpoint and it's a point of disagreement, yeah, but again I feel hopeful that the church is moving. Churches Christians will always be it's not a monolithic institution are coming to see queer people as full members of the family of humanity, even though that's not always evident in people's experience, and including mine.

Shawn: 41:50

I think there's a segue in there about something that I did want to talk to you about and I mentioned earlier, which is, at least through my lens, what seems to be like a more militant version of Christianity that seems to be, I don't know, evolving, and I guess I want to place this in the context of my own experience, because I'm well open to the fact that, again, one, I'm not a Christian historian and, two, my life began at a certain time and I just don't have a grasp of what it was like prior. So, relative to my experience, organized religion, particularly Christianity because that's the only experience that I've had feels really different than it did when I was coming up in the church so this would be in the 80s and by this I mean the people themselves, the people attending church, feel different. They feel, as I mentioned earlier, a bit more militant. They feel less forgiving and angry, and then also the interpretation of the Bible, or at least the dominant interpretation, seems like it's also different less about forgiveness and charity and focusing on the least powerful, and more about identifying rigid boundaries and then imposing those on outgroups, and there's a certain amount of grievance and to some degree, I think, in some corners of it there's a certain amount of violence, whether that's verbal or outright physical violence.

Shawn: 43:07

But I guess I'm of two minds here. One is part of me feels like what we've witnessed is some kind of hostile takeover of Christianity, that it was infiltrated and that people like me were run out of it and it was taken over by this militant group of people that are now imposing their interpretation. But then I'm open to the idea and there's this other part of me that wonders if this is actually just some kind of an evolution that I missed because I left in the late 80s, early 90s and so maybe I just missed it that these are actually the same people that I went to church with and it's the same teaching that I receive, but that it's somehow evolved in our society in some way that's just more aggressive and confrontational than I remember it being.

Dr. Schlager: 43:51

Right, yeah, and I think we have to begin by specifying which traditions we're talking about in specific. So I do think that there is in some forms, particularly of white Christian denominations or traditions or majority whites thumb, a turn toward white nationalism and trying to equate white racist ideologies with the Bible. So that's an interesting and unfortunate and really harming way of using the Bible. And I also would agree that there is a way in which test cases are thrown out. So I remember, back in the struggle for same-sex marriage, an attempt made. There was an interesting, infinitely unsuccessful alliance made between some of the Catholic bishops of the state of California and some leaders of the Latter-day Saints Church in Utah to prevent the legalization of marriage between people of the same gender in the state of California. And they did massive mail-ins throughout California trying to say to people this is a watershed moment. If we allow a man to marry a woman to marry a woman, we've kind of slid into the worst era of our history. Well, they failed, they failed. They tried to demonize At that point Cain, lesbian people, and it failed. And I think what it showed was, even with a massive amount of money that some of these Catholic leaders and some of these LDS leaders brought to bear in this campaign. They failed. And so there's an example of a militarization of a point of view within Christian traditions that failed miserably, despite lots of money and despite the voices of some influential conservative folks. So that definitely is happening. It often fails and I would also counterbalance that by saying in certain Protestant traditions I think in particular, it happens in Catholicism as well I think, in a different way there has been an attempt to really double down on sexual issues and say we're going to draw a line here, we are not going to support, and this is what's happening in the Methodist Church in the United States.

Dr. Schlager: 46:00

The United Methodist Church is some are pulling away and, interestingly, a lot of that pulling away comes from Methodists on the African continent, people who were missionized and converted by Western Christians who at that time Preach homosexuality as a grievous sin. The response of some of these African groups is wait a minute, what changed? Hundred years ago? You were telling us that it was this. Now it's changed. So there's some complexity there and yes, I think there is on some denominations, attempt to to really politicize and almost militarized this, and there are, you know, intense fights happening. Right, we live in a nation now where the political discourses devolved into name-calling and shouting. And you know, I pay attention a lot to what's happening to libraries in the United States, right when books are being taken, or you know, librarians are being fired, etc. Etc.

Dr. Schlager: 46:50

But more to your point, I think that there there's an attempt to do this. I don't I believe it will not be successful. You know, most US citizens support, to take the example of what was called right same-sex marriage. They support this. I also believe, from what I read in polls you're taking another hot button issues that most Americans actually do not agree that abortion under all circumstances should be illegal. You know, even though there's a group of People on the right, especially those who who have religious ties, who believe it's a deeply serious moral Evil that should be eradicated, meaning choice or abortion from society. And so, yes, I think militarization is happening, demonization is happening, and yet this happens in the Catholic world too. And yet we currently have a pope who has said things about gay people, maybe not gone as far as I certainly would have liked. There's changing the narrative a bit. You know, in this upcoming Senate there are people again, as I mentioned, who will be there who support a much different point of view on Queer people, queer sexuality. So I think that there has been, you know, a certain intensification.

Dr. Schlager: 47:56

And yet is this one of the reasons, I don't know, people are leaving churches? Are some of them becoming too political? An example that's often pointed to is the takeover in the in the early 1980s of the Southern Baptist Convention. Traditionally Baptist did not get involved in politics in the sense that you would hear preached from the pulpit. You know who to vote for right. And the great shifting evidently that happened in US politics around issues of race as always in the kind of US you know settings was the bringing into the Republican Party people who were against what they saw as changes in Culture that you know, provided equality to, to black Americans In ways that they didn't agree with right, and so there was this Shifting of political frameworks within the United States.

Dr. Schlager: 48:43

I also believe that test cases are put out there. So the test case of gay marriage, as it was called, failed right. I think the current test case being floated by some people who have militarized Christianity or have intensified debates around the Bible and sexuality and homosexuality, as it's frequently termed, are floating this idea. You know, maybe by focusing on transgender individuals, we can create the kind of stir and Moral outrage that we couldn't do around gay marriage, you know. So I know that's a meandering response, but yes, I agree with you.

Dr. Schlager: 49:20

I think that there has been an intensification of using the Bible. As you know, I've been say for for queer people and others, by the way, I think migrants and women, you know People at the lower realms of society, homeless people, and yet I take great hope in, you know, the goodness of humanity and that that we will see our way through this and it will be a long struggle and a long fight. So earlier, when I mentioned, you know, that long list of mainline Protestant denominations that have come to welcome, a firm Embrace whatever verb we want to use LGBTQ people, that didn't happen out of nowhere. That happened because in the late 1960s and early 1970s, every one of those denominations had small groups of queer people who got together and said you know what we don't agree with the way the Bible is being preached. So we're no longer going to sit in the pews and listen to people talk about queer people as sinners or deserving of you know, expulsion from the church or, in the worst case, what happened to us it's like a treatment or being thrown in jail but, you know, being killed or violence wreaked upon us because we're going to stand up and say this this is the Bible as an example, is not being understood correctly. Well, what happens in the course of really historically 20 short years is not only do Denominational position shift on the issue of what was then, you know, termed almost you know homosexuality or queer people and queer identities, but individual people were allowed to apply for and be Accepted into seminaries and to be ordained as pastors or priests or ministers.

Dr. Schlager: 50:58

So I work at a seminary, pacific School of Religion, where the oldest Protestant seminary west of the Mississippi River. We've always been independent, but we've had strong historic alliances with the United Church of Christ, united Methodist Church, disciples of Christ and a whole host of other people. At least half, usually, of our student population Identifies as queer. They have probably for the past 25 years or more. Our Center for LGBTQ and gender studies and religion was founded almost 25 years ago. So so we incorporate within the theology that we teach the ministry that we prepare people for, you know, and it's not only acceptance but a whole hearted embrace. Our whole Curriculum has been informed by queer theology. Our whole way of training ministers has been informed by people engaged in pastoral care with all sorts of people, and one of the programs I'm most proud of it at CLGS, the Center for LGBTQ and gender studies and religion is we're now celebrating our 10th anniversary of trans cohort that we Cosponsor. That brings together each year seven or eight seminarians Christian, jewish and other Seminarians from around the United States who identify as non-binary or who identify as trans, and we bring them together in a cohort to provide the kind of support and Mentorship that they need as trans people to go out into the world as rabbis or ministers, and I think our alum group now is well over 50 people. So we've been doing this for well over I don't know 12 years, and so these individuals who are going out into the world, as it were, as out trans people who are religious leaders many Christian, jewish, unitarian, universalist, you know.

Dr. Schlager: 52:44

So this is the kind of change that takes a lot of work, takes time, takes patience, you know. I believe that that this has a ripple effect even in, I think, some traditions that today remain closed, the queer people. Some may remain always closed, right, but I think change happens in surprising ways. You know, again, who knew that people would support women in the pulpit in some tradition? Who knew that that Americans by and large would support same-sex marriage? Who knew that you could find congregations where trans people are welcomed? You know who knew that you could find religious communities where a person's Claiming of their true gender becomes celebrated in liturgies, right and in church services? That's happening, happening everywhere. Even you know maybe this is my bias, growing up in the Midwest and not in the south even in the south, you know, and in other parts, not just the south is a conservative or traditional. And so, again, our Transseminary leadership cohort, we have done this work with the National LGBTQ Task Force, with the Freedom Center for Social Justice, a black Christian group in the Carolinas.

Dr. Schlager: 53:52

So, even though our trans siblings are being demonized and otherized in ways you know, even within queer communities, I believe that there's hope, and so I do understand that Sometimes there are some religious groups that find the easiest way to raise moral outrage is by pointing to oh my god, look at those queer people, look at how disgusting there, look at what they're doing, look at people embracing in our language, embracing their true gender, and that is against the Bible. I believe the Bible, as with other religious texts, will win out. Can you use the Bible as a weapon? Absolutely, would Jesus use the Bible as a weapon? I don't think so. The matter of fact, jesus had many things to say about parts of the Bible of his day that he didn't agree with, and Perhaps that led to his crucifixion by the Roman authorities.

Dr. Schlager: 54:38

But I'm hopeful, and yet I'm not blind to the fact that there is a Militarization, that that we see. That seems different. I grew up in the 1960s, so I grew up in a period, as a child, right during the the social revolutions of the 1960s. But I saw within my own Catholic setting the effect of the Second Vatican Council, which I don't even remember I don't think I've ever went to the mass in Latin but where what becomes paramount within Catholic theology and it redounds to other Christian Denominations around the world and it's a give-and-take kind of thing is the birth of liberation theology.

Dr. Schlager: 55:12

Who knew that this would happen? Where the church in Central and South America calls upon Christians of all denominations to work for and with the poor in ways that the church hadn't done for a long, long time, and so I'm hopeful that we will see change and that there will be, see, change in religious traditions, and I think it's happening and it's it. It feels to me like it's, you know. You know three steps forward and one step behind, and it's disheartening. And yet, you know, queer people have always been part of religious communities, most often hidden, most often silence. But when we've stood up, good things can happen.

Dr. Schlager: 55:49

And that may mean changing one's affiliation, right finding, you know, if one is in a more conservative branch of Luthoranism. There are other expressions of Lutheranism that one can choose, same with every diocese, practically Catholic diocese in the United States. You can move online and find lists of parishes where people feel Embraced and welcomed as queer people. There are a whole lot of others where they would not be welcomed and not even be mentioned. Right there's synagogues where this is happening. They're Muslim communities that are embracing queer people.

Dr. Schlager: 56:22

The LDS Church is, I think, about to experience and reveal foundational shifts around.

Dr. Schlager: 56:29

You know, queer people, you know just the fact that the LDS Church officially has stopped opposing in many areas, equal rights laws for queer people is historic.

Dr. Schlager: 56:39

So I think change is happening.

Dr. Schlager: 56:41

It's slow and it often is the result of Real advocacy worked on on the part of people.

Dr. Schlager: 56:48

And speaking back right to the people in positions of power and saying you may read the Bible that way, but that's not my Bible and I'm not going to use the Bible as a weapon and I'm not gonna allow myself to be weaponized. You know that the Bible thrown at me as as a weapon that might mean that one is kicked out of a church or a synagogue or a mosque. And yet my hope, you know, as a parent and and grandparent and as a human being, is that succeeding Generations are taking different views. It's not as if once work done is done, it's completely done. It's ongoing work. So are there young people who Embrace religious traditions that are anti queer? Absolutely, and yet my hope is that we can change people's. You know, hearts and minds around lots of issues, but including those around sexuality, because my belief is that embracing queer people and many others is a more authentic way of understanding, at least in a Christian perspective. I believe this true in other religious traditions what is at the heart of these traditions?

Shawn: 57:49

You Mentioned pastoral care and the importance of pastoral care and I know this is you've done work in this area. You've written about this. Can you define what pastoral care is and then help me understand this concept in the context of the queer community and what it looks like in practice?

Dr. Schlager: 58:04

Sure, and let me preface my remarks by saying I'm not an ordained person. I did attend seminary at one point. So I believe pastoral care is done among people, not just those who are ordained right in a specific tradition. I come at it from, I think, interestingly from my work at the Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies and Religion, as an academic, as an activist, right, so kind of that dual thing. And I'm a churchgoing member. I find real strength in my Catholic identity. I also have a Buddhist practice, so I'm kind of a queer spiritual person, proudly in many ways. And so when I co-wrote a book with a friend of mine who is an ordained minister, david Kunst, on, you know, ministry among God's queer folk is what we call the book I see pastoral care as a relationship between people, right. So it's one of relational presence, it's a relationship of spiritual companionship and that's a relationship of emotional support Oftentimes, where a queer person will find, if they feel safe enough to speak to someone who's a representative of, say, a religious body, a religious group, about being queer and how, and if they fit into a particular group of people, it's often through the realm of pastoral care, right, where people talking with one another, exploring what it means to be a person of faith and for queer pastoral care. A queer person of faith right, because, as we know and as we mentioned, churches have done so much damage to queer people throughout history Not uniformly, not at all times, not in the same ways, but the reality is there's been a lot of damage done and is being done. So pastoral care is this relationship between, we will frequently say, a caregiver and a care receiver right About what it means to be a member of a religious community and how can that person be if they're accepted and they're approved? I don't believe it makes sense, at least from my worldview, to take part in a and this is my own point of view in a religious tradition that is constantly denigrating an individual for who they are, and I feel comfortable enough finding a local parish where I feel embraced, welcomed, respected, equal, even if the official teaching of a particular tradition is queer, negative, because my hope is that it can change, and it changes through the creation of new theologies, which is definitely happening in Western Christianity. I believe also in Orthodox Christianity.

Dr. Schlager: 1:00:31

For decades, people have been writing from queer perspectives, and so pastoral care, then, is this relationship that is horizontal and not vertical, and it's where a person who's a pastoral caregiver is present companions with another person and provides emotional support around issues, questions, topics relating to queer identity, which is not always at the top of queer people's minds, of course, in a religious setting, although it's part of who we are, my partner and I sometimes laugh so. We raised our three children in Unitarian Universalism, which is can be theistic or not. It's not Christ centered and wonderful groups of people in the congregations we are a part of for many years. Even there, you know very progressive tradition, the fact that we were gay men. We were sometimes looked to as sex experts. Right, oh, they're gay or they're queer, and they must know a lot about sex. You know, truth be told. Well, I may want to believe that. You know we're regular people. Is our sexuality and the way that we're attracted to other human beings different? Maybe the non queer people? Perhaps in some ways, but it's just part of who we are, an important part, but it's not only who we are, and that's the other thing about that. Happens, I think, in some religious traditions that are, you know, hitting people over the head with their Bibles because of issues around sexuality, essentializing people in that we queer people are only queer. They were only worth considering or talking about because of our sexual lives, which is like you know, come on, that's a part of who I am. It's not all of who I am. It's distorting right.

Dr. Schlager: 1:02:06

Pastoral care is, you know, it's about building relationships, and so my own experience is the work that I've done, the work we do at our centers, largely through our roundtables, you know, through African American roundtable, latinx roundtable, trans roundtable, jewish roundtable, asian American, pacific Islander roundtable, we have lots of ways of doing our work. It's within these particular communities. How is pastoral care then offered? It looks very different, right, in a traditional black Christian church, then it might in a group of I don't know reform Jewish people are meeting together, or group of Buddhists. And yet it's important because it's the way in which we experience what it means to be spiritual people is to have support with one another, to build relationships and to bring into who we are in a church or synagogue or mosque or whatever sangha setting all of who we are and to have that be respected not only respected but also celebrated.

Dr. Schlager: 1:03:00

And part of what we talk about in that book that we wrote, david and I wrote, is that you know it's not just saying, okay, you know, queer people are here, we'll put a rainbow flag on the, you know, on the pillar outside or whatever, and come in and you're here, but don't be too queer. And the reality is, when queer people are welcomed into a church or religious setting, yes, it means things will change. It means that you know our lives will be celebrated, you know our lives, we will be recognized. Right, it's not just that we're going to sit in the back view and be quiet and, you know, smile and say, ooh, we're here, it's really cool and glad we were invited. Yeah, and glad we were invited. And the reality is, you've always been there, you know.

Dr. Schlager: 1:03:38

And if we're not invited in, this is our place too, even if we've been, you know, I'm an organized church musician, at least back in the day. Yeah, we're okay in the choir loft or singing or whatever, as the priest or the minister, perhaps closeted, but don't, god forbid, talk about it. You know that's in many places. That's changed Like. No, we're not. We're not living according to that script anymore. Right, and again, pastoral care is such a vital part of being a member of a religious community. Right, because how we care for one another in this strange world of faith or spirituality.

Shawn: 1:04:13

Okay, final question Are you ready for it? Sure, yeah, yeah, what's something interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to or doing lately.

Dr. Schlager: 1:04:21

Aha, so a couple of things. One is I took the plunge and I just came out of a 30-day retreat, silent retreat, based on. This is kind of based on arcane, based on the spiritual exercises of St Ignatius of Loyola, so that was like. You know, I wanted to do this for many years. So Ignatius Loyola founded the Jesuit order, so that was interesting. You know I went into it a bit concerned, worried. You know it's completely out in the setting of 20 people. That was not an issue. So that was, that was an interesting thing to do.

Dr. Schlager: 1:04:55

And then another thing that recently concluded was I took part in being interviewed as one of the main folks in this documentary called Not a Tame Lion, and you can Google it and find it and watch it for free online. So it's a documentary directed by a person named Craig Bettendorf. It is about the life of my graduate school advisor, john Boswell, and his his life as a queer person of faith. So that was really fun because it was bringing back and this really important historian. Something else I'm doing is is I'm working on this longstanding project around the cult of St Sebastian. The story is that Sebastian was this martyr in the early church and how does he become by the 20th century, this gay icon right, Especially for people who are dying of AIDS in the 1980s and 90s. So what I do in this project is look at how Sebastian becomes identified during the Lubonic plague as a patron saint, because people are developing welts on their bodies, tragically dying within a few days.

Dr. Schlager: 1:05:53

And then, in the Baroque period, painters begin to focus on painting Sebastian because it's an excuse. What it's? A? It's an opportunity, put it that way to paint the naked male form right and not Jesus on the crucifix, that that is also done. But this is different. And so Sebastian becomes. You know, all these great artists make these very, you know sexy pictures and you know sculptures of Sebastian. And when we get to the 19th century, with Oscar Wilde and others, he becomes identified as as as a queer individual right and people, especially gay men, but others like to look at depictions of him. And then come the 20th century, when the AIDS pandemic hits, you have artists, secular artists like Keith Haring, wajnarowicz, who then start painting or making artistic representations of Sebastian, because there's a whole group of men and women too, but who who develop you know carpicesarcoma, which are these welts on the skin right, and they look like Sebastian. So that that's something fun I've been doing.

Dr. Schlager: 1:07:00

And then just let me mention a book or two that I've been reading. One is this book called Love Tenderly Sacred Stories of Lesbian and Queer Religious, so this great group of writings by lesbian and bisexual Catholic nuns and their stories of being out as queer religious women. And then something else I probably know, this book called Punch Me Up to the Gods, written by Brian Broome, this queer black man who grew up in rural Ohio. Really interesting book, something I've always been fascinated by maybe because my own experience is otherness, and how people are depicted or understood or viewed or treated as other right Because of either race or sexual orientation or identity. And the last thing I would mention is I really have fallen in love with this podcast Maybe you know it called Queer as Fact and it's created by four Australian, I think in Melbourne queer people who write about queer history and some really great topics like lesbian relationships in ancient Rome. Yeah, just all sorts of really cool stuff. So that that's been kind of what I've been doing for fun lately.

Shawn: 1:08:05

You keep busy.

Dr. Schlager: 1:08:08

Yeah, but I love it and I had this gift, this remarkable gift of sabbatical, so I feel like I'm on vacation in some ways.

Shawn: 1:08:17

When do you go back?

Dr. Schlager: 1:08:18

On January 1st.

Shawn: 1:08:20

Oh gosh, you're staring down the barrel.

Dr. Schlager: 1:08:23

Yeah, I am, but I almost feel like I'm ready now. The thing is I have to drive the car across my car across the country, which would be fun, but I'll do it in January, as I did it driving out. So I'll definitely I'll try to go through Wisconsin and, you know, not get hit up by a snowstorm and all that kind of stuff.

Shawn: 1:08:39

Or whatever. Whatever is coming our way these days? You know Exactly, Dr Schlager, I could pick your brain all day, but I'm sure you want to keep some of it for other activities. So what's left of it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But thank you for taking the time to have this conversation with me. I really enjoyed it, thank you.

Shawn: 1:08:58

I've been an opposition to dominant Christianity for decades and that hasn't really changed. I believe that the church has evolved into something dangerous and violent for outgroups, for queer folks, women in many ways people of color, and, frankly, it ain't no safe place for kids either. I do believe that the contemporary Christian church is actively contributing to the deterioration of our social civility and our peace. The church gives cover to people who marginalize, who hate, who commit violence in the name of God, even when people fall short of the expectations of the church. It is the church's job to be a safe haven for even those who aren't practitioners, to lead with love and compassion and to hold itself to even higher standards than it does anyone else. In this regard, the church is failing spectacularly, and I won't let it pass without mention, without bearing witness to that kind of distortion and corruption. The church is, in many ways the cause of great injustice, pain and suffering in this world, and it should be held to account for that, for the hate and violence that is ceded grows inside the church and then spills over into the rest of society. It's bad enough that the church is cruel to its own, but we have every right to take a stand against the violence it brings into our communities that have nothing to do with the church.

Shawn: 1:10:20

That being said, I recognize that the church can also be a place of great refuge, and my conversation with Dr Schlager today did remind me that the church meant something profound to me at some point in my life. We had a break the church and I, and have never gone back, probably never will, but the hole left in its absence is still there. It hasn't been filled with something else. It's something I still miss at times that feeling of safety, security, belonging and love, not just from the people but from God. I did take comfort in believing that I was designed, that I had some purpose. Even if it all hurt all the time, there was a master plan, a reason for it.

Shawn: 1:11:00

I found great comfort in my religion as a child, and I lost that and nothing replaces it, but still I'm whole, I've made peace with it and I still care enough to hold out hope that the church and the people who represent and lead the church write this ship and remember what Jesus was all about compassion, forgiveness, love and fellowship. That church could be a real value to society in a way that the current one is not. Regardless of where you are on this issue, if you're a believer, if you used to be a believer, if you've abandoned or been abandoned by the church, if you're tormented about religion, or if you've never believed at all, there is a community somewhere that feels the same as you do, and I would never suggest that faith itself is not a worthy endeavor. Alright, folks, check back soon for another episode of Deep Dive.