Greatest Hit: Coming Out, Surviving and Thriving with Soda Canter and Justin Hentges

**Originally released Dec 9, 2022**

Have you ever pondered the courage it takes to truly embrace your identity, despite society's norms? Do you ever wonder what it feels like to experience the world through the lens of a queer individual? Join me for a heartfelt conversation with guests, Soda Canter and Justin Hentges, as we navigate through the intricacies of our queer lives.

This episode unpacks various stages of our lives, inviting you to reflect on some key moments such as coming out, confronting societal prejudices, and finding self-acceptance. Justin shares his vulnerable journey of coming out and how it was crucial for him to survive into his 40s. We discuss the challenges faced by queer individuals in the military, scrutinizing Soda's experiences under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Soda and Justin bring a sprinkle of humor with a dash of reality.

This isn't a conversation limited to personal anecdotes though. We tackle broader issues that touch the lives of queer individuals everywhere. Body positivity, self-acceptance, and societal expectations are some of the topics that we shine a light on. We wrap up the episode with a dose of nostalgia as we recall our childhood celebrity crushes and the music that marked our youth. So, get comfortable and join us on this exploration of queer life and the journey towards self-acceptance.

Mentioned:
Nellie’s Sport Bar
JRs Bar
Tell Me Lies
After the Ecstasy, the Laundry - Jack Kornfield
The Expanse
Martina McBride
Reba McEntire
Matchbox Twenty
Faith Hill
Bobbie Gentry
Amy Grant

Recommended:
Morgantown Blues

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Email: deepdivewithshawn@gmail.com

**Artwork: Dovi Design
**Music: Joystock

Transcript

Justin: 0:00

You know, in a strange way, I think that, because of the violence and just the horror of that it actually there was, actually give me some resolve to keep coming out right Like it was a I can't go back in the closet because, because people are being killed for being gay, like I have to be out and I have to, I have to live this life because that's the only way it's going to be better for me and for other people. Right, like there was that piece of it that just I think you know, for all of the horribleness of that crime, you know that might have been one of the good things that you know we were able, or I was able, to take from that.

Shawn: 0:42

Welcome to Deep Dive with me, sean Seafedig. I've been thinking a lot lately about my evolution as a human being generally, but more specifically as a gay man, where I come from, how it influenced the trajectory of my life, how I fit into the community, how I've changed and also how the world has changed for good and bad, and what does that mean for my future as a gay man, as a queer person. And I thought it would be interesting to talk to some friends of mine who might be in the same boat gay men in our 40s. And I thought it might be even more interesting to record that conversation and share it with you all, because I doubt that we're alone in our reflection and our thoughts. So today I'm talking to Soda Canter, who you might remember from an earlier episode of Deep Dive when we talked about his artistry and his music, and I'm also talking to Justin Hentges, a new guest of Deep Dive and a longtime friend of mine.

Shawn: 1:37

This conversation is very heavy at times and also very silly at times. This is a wide-ranging conversation. We talk about Matthew Shepard and the influence his torture and death had on our young queer lives, our coming out stories, racism, misogyny and transphobia in the queer community, where some of our greatest support from the queer community has come from, who our first crushes were, the utility of kaftans and whatever happened to Amy Grant. I'm hoping that for some of you, maybe hearing our conversation might resonate, maybe even spark some similar conversations for you with some of your friends and family, whatever your tribe is, and if you feel alone in these thoughts and in your world, hopefully we, justin Soda and I, can be a kind of proxy in some small way for the things you consider and you reflect on.

Shawn: 2:29

In this time that we're living through, when the world can seem well, can actually be particularly dangerous and scary, I think it's important to make concerted efforts to reach out to each other, to share our stories, to be a support when we can and to ask for support when we need it, and so I truly believe that conversations like this today, outside of our heads, can be unifying and empowering and remind us that, even if and when we feel lonely, we're not alone. I want to note we do talk about violence that's been committed against the queer community in this conversation, and it was recorded before the shooting at Club Q in Colorado Springs. If you like this episode or any episode, please feel free to give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. And, as always, if you have any thoughts, questions or comments, please feel free to email me at deepdivewithSeanatgmailcom. Let's do a deep dive, justin Hentchis. Justin Hentchis, this is your first time on the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Justin: 3:38

How are you? Hey Sean, Thanks for having me. I'm doing well. How are you doing?

Shawn: 3:43

I'm doing okay, and so to counter veteran literally, and a veteran of the podcast, how are you?

Soda: 3:50

I'm doing great. Thank you for having me back.

Shawn: 3:53

So I have a drink in my hand, and I'm not the only one, am I?

Justin: 3:57

No, I don't drink anymore. Sean.

Shawn: 4:03

What are you drinking?

Justin: 4:04

I have a glass of red wine. No ice cubes, although I do like an ice cube in my wine at times.

Shawn: 4:10

I did just hear an ice cube, though.

Soda: 4:11

Yeah, it's all of mine. It's my grandma canter special. Which is what? It's just basically half a bottle of cheap white wine and any kind, and then you just douse it with seltzer and like so many ice cubes and it's a delight. Wait, what do you mean? Half a bottle of white wine? I mean, I just have a gigantic glass. It's actually not a wine glass, it's basically just half a bottle. Yeah, I feel I'm feeling judged.

Shawn: 4:43

No, I'm actually intrigued. I mean, I have nothing against ice in wine.

Soda: 4:48

Yeah, I feel. I mean, I feel like it gets a bad rap, but it's nice to know that I'm in a friend group right now that likes occasional ice in their wine.

Shawn: 4:56

So OK, so the whole purpose of this podcast is I wanted to talk to the two of you about since we're all kind of relatively the same age group to have a conversation not about what it's like to be in, you know, our 40s as queer folks, but to kind of reflect on what was it like to be queer in our 20s, and then how does that stack up to what it's like to be queer in our 40s? And so my first question for you then, soda, is would you have put ice in your wine in your 20s?

Soda: 5:24

Absolutely. I mean, especially if somebody else was buying like I would have. I would have drank anything, it wouldn't have mattered. Yeah, absolutely.

Justin: 5:32

Soda, would you have done it like? Would you have done it just in full view of everyone, or would you have tried to like do it on the sly Right, like I'm going to try to get a little bit of ice for my water glass, slip it into the wine glass, or would you Just?

Soda: 5:44

if you know me and I think that there's many parts of me that maybe are a little bit more polite but like with drinking, like there's no, I wouldn't have cared. Yeah, I probably would have done it just to piss people off, especially at, like, a cocktail party. Yeah, especially in my 20s.

Shawn: 6:00

Let's start at well, the proverbial queer beginning which is coming out stories. Justin, what's yours?

Justin: 6:08

So I came out when I was 19.

Justin: 6:11

I actually came out the day that Matthew Shepard was was assaulted, and obviously it was a few days before, you know, we knew anything about it, and I, you know, just told, I told a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine, and from there just kind of kept telling people, and it's not like I don't want to say maybe like the kind of traditional, coming out from the vantage point of I had grown up in a very small town, conservative part of the country, in Northern Wisconsin, and, you know, felt very ashamed during high school and all of that, and, you know, had depression, and you know suicidal, and you know, when I came out, had struggled for a couple of years with all of that, and you know.

Justin: 6:52

I think, though, that you know, there's nothing like there was no, there's not like any, you know, movie moment or anything like that. It was just, you know, realizing that if I didn't come to terms with this, that I wouldn't be around to see my 40s. And so, you know, just taking the plunge and told my friend Megan, and she was incredibly supportive, and then, you know, just started telling a few other folks and then, you know, just kind of went from there.

Shawn: 7:20

Matthew Shepard, was a big influence on me coming out as well. I think I had known before I mean, I did know before I actually came out that I was gay. But I actually did that thing where I was like literally, if I don't say it out loud, you know, or once I say it out loud then I really am. So I remember practicing in front of a mirror saying like, okay, I'm gay. But I actually had like a really hard time doing it. But yeah, matthew Shepard, it was that, that moment in my life which is really interesting, that it was for you as well when I thought I don't know, I just don't want to keep pretending which is an odd thing, right, because it was such a violent thing to have happened that you would almost think it would scare people in.

Justin: 8:01

Yeah, yeah, because I had a friend that asked me because, you know, it was a couple days later when all the news reports were coming out and they had found his body and everything.

Justin: 8:10

And one of my friends asked me and she said you know, are you sure you want to do this, are you sure that you don't want to just pretend? And you know, in a strange way, I think that because of the violence and just the horror of that it actually there was actually gave me some resolve to keep coming out right, like it was a I can't go back in the closet because, because people are being killed for being gay, like I have to be out and I have to, I have to live this life because that's the only way it's going to be better for me and for other people. Right, like there was that piece of it that just I think you know, for all of the horribleness of that crime, you know that might have been one of the one of the good things that you know we were able, or I was able, to take from that.

Shawn: 8:55

That really was a catalyzing moment. I think I also grew up in Wisconsin very conservative town although to be completely honest with you, we can we can circle back on this later but I do feel like conservatism now, as it relates to the queer community, is just very different to what I was experiencing at the time, which was kind of like you do you but keep it quiet. And there was something with Matthew Shepard where I thought like I didn't know anything about Wyoming but everything that I was hearing in the news, and like how he died and where he died, you know, in the middle of like some I don't know ranch town, you know mountain village, whatever, and just feeling like if that kid could do it then like what am I so afraid of?

Justin: 9:37

Yeah, yeah, no, I totally understand that, sean, and I think that was the thing on. It was such a catalyzing moment for, I know, for me but also for other folks that I knew at the university I was at, that you know either had already come out or that were in that process of you know both, both the fear that that was there, right Cause coming out is a very fearful process and it's also in a lot of ways, very joyful, but there was also the sense of like we have to stick together. So, and especially, you know, I went to a smaller university and you know a medium sized town in Wisconsin and and you know there weren't a lot of queer people there. But I think that event kind of helped us, you know, realize like, hey, we do have to look out for each other, and you know so. So, again, it's so tragic and horrible and yet you know there was some some good that came out of that horrible event. I think, yeah, I agree, soda, what's your story?

Soda: 10:39

Well, thank you for sharing, Justin and Sean. I was trying to remember back to because I remember, obviously, the news surrounding this. I remember, like my gut reaction to that, which, you know, my schooling was very different because my dad worked at the university at the time and so a lot of eyes were on me and so it did kind of create this tug of war within me of like wanting to be like free and kind of wild. And you know, I'm experimenting and kind of out there, but then also at the same time being or attempting to be some kind of like perfect Southern Baptist son, and also like in DC at that time too, like it was so strange to be, you know, on a Catholic Jesuit campus but then maybe 10 minutes away at Stupont Circle, where everything was alive and that was like some of the first time that I saw like men together. And you know, for me, you know, I go to college, I'm experimenting, I'm having sex with men and women, I'm just doing all of these things and you know, I'm just so wild and free, like I'm some kind of strange inventive hippie in my mind, right, that's the lie that I was telling myself, and you know then, of course, it's like, okay, well, that was college and let me just go ahead and go into the Marine Corps, and so you know. And then it's during don't ask, don't tell, and there's that experience and that was just basically like I mean, a pressure cooker for me because of being under the scrutiny and trying to prove my manhood and all of these things.

Soda: 12:12

And you know, when I came out, you know, obviously to my parents, after I exited the Marine Corps honorable discharge. I didn't have to get discharged because of my sexuality. But I think that I remember too is that the parental conversation was so horrible and it never stopped, like obviously that's the reason why we don't have one of the many reasons we don't have a relationship. There are other topics, but there were all these pockets.

Soda: 12:38

Like I had to tell my Marine friend group, I had to tell my like university friend group, I had to tell the people at work, and all of them had such varied reactions Like my university counterparts, like I was expecting a lot of support in spaces that I did not receive. It kind of became like a joke. And it's also like kind of this rich white mentality too, of some of the people that have trust funds, of like not understanding what I was going through. From my socioeconomic background and then my work, friends were probably because they didn't really know me were the most supportive, just because they understood the struggles from transitioning out of the Marine Corps and then now coming out of both very traumatic. And then, of course, like the Marines, all the Marines were like I'm fucking pissed at you, like why couldn't you have told us this exactly like while you were in, because then we could go to all those clubs with you and all those clubs have straight single women.

Soda: 13:33

And I was like what, what like, what is this? Like they were just they could care less. Like I was so shocked that, like my Marine friend group was the most supportive out of all of these individuals. Yeah, I mean, I think that it really set up my life overall and you know, kind of through my twenties and thirties and now forties, just kind of thinking back of like what that time was like, I really wish I had done things differently and not given a fuck In the name of like. Obviously, like you both shared this, like Matthew Shepard, and thinking about all of the people that sacrificed themselves, I wish I cared a little bit less. But you know, I think you live in Lawn.

Shawn: 14:14

I'm remembering back on the interview that we did for your music. You said you know, and so I did what all you know gay boys from small towns do. At the time I joined the military and I actually had a visual reaction to that because I was like that is the last thing I would have done. I would have actively avoided joining the military. And this was around the same time and I'm wondering, justin, was that something you considered was joining the military?

Justin: 14:43

Oh, yeah, you did. Yeah, oh, totally yeah, I mean, I know I would not have been able to be a Marine because my dad was a Marine and I remember at some point in time when growing up and he said, you know something to the effect of if you're going to be in the military, that's fine, but you're not going to be a Marine. And I never, you know. Later I understood more what that meant because of his experience and Vietnam and everything. But yeah, no, I remember in high school thinking about it, you know, going into the Navy or the Air Force or something like that, and part of it, I think, was the escape, right, it felt like that was a way to get out of my town and out of Wisconsin and out of this life. That, while you know, for everybody looking in, I had, you know, I had a perfect childhood and you know my parents are still together, right, like I have, you know, an older sister, like everything like was picture perfect.

Justin: 15:40

I was just battling this large secret, and so I think for me the thought of the military was that was that escape piece and so, and also the you know, I mean I work for the government now, so it was. You know, I'm in public service, so there was a public service aspect of that as well. But then for me it was the don't ask, don't tell, because that was, you know, that was right about the time I was, you know, when Clinton was there and I was in high school and starting to think about it that there was a part of me that was like, oh, I don't, I'm not going to be able to do this, like, even at that stage I knew that I was queer and I knew that I wouldn't be able to keep that secret for a long time, and so that's, I think, part of what kept me from, you know, pursuing that more.

Shawn: 16:31

I guess I just assumed this was that the way that I thought about this was probably universal that to me, the military was a threat. So towards the end of high school, we're talking about, like what are your future plans right? Going to university, going into a trade, going into the military, et cetera and all of the people that were lining up for military. I was like not my people, right, like these are people that, and not just not my people. They scared the shit out of me. I saw them as like an existential threat to me. So the idea of joining the military was just off the table from the beginning.

Soda: 17:01

That is really interesting and I love what Justin just said because that is it was that you know, I was a first generation college student, made it out and for me, the university like you know, I'm around all these people with trust funds, with actual real money and, you know, just living their dreams, going to Europe, doing all these things that I had dreamed of, and it's start. You start to infiltrate your mind, that it's possible for you, you know, like to live that life, go to New York and do all of these great things. I thought I was going to work in advertising and I mean I almost got like this job at Ralph Lauren and then it didn't pan out. And then I was panicked because I then I was stuck at home and just like what Justin just said, like, yeah, I was like I need to get the hell out of here or I'm going to die, like I'm not going to be able to stay here because it was under my parents' roof, it was back in town and basically, like my dad was like you should get a job at Pepco and stay here and have like I can't do this, like I can't do it, and so I caught a recruiter up, I did it and it was under, you know, like I was playing a very dangerous game, like don't ask them to tell my time in the Marine Corps.

Soda: 18:10

I loved the experience. Like you know, I was exploring my sexuality, like going out and doing all the things, but then also like getting up the next day at 4.30 in the morning to PT and do all the stuff, but for me it was like a way out. I will always say that the Marine Corps saved my life and I think that it specifically it saved my queer life.

Shawn: 18:31

I know you've talked about this soda previously, but I still want to hear it. But let's start, Justin, with you. How did you tell your family and how did they respond?

Justin: 18:39

Well, so I told my sister first so my sister is eight years older than I am I was home. So I came out in October to my friends in college and then the next summer I was home and this is, this would have been between my sophomore and junior year of college. And I was home and I called my sister because I was going to tell my parents on Independence Day. I wanted to tell her first just this story, like hello, queer right, because I was listening to Martina McBride.

Soda: 19:13

Oh my God, please play it in the background. Sean Go on.

Shawn: 19:16

Justin, I can't licensing.

Justin: 19:18

but Martina, if you're listening, you know over and, over and over and I was psyching myself up and I called her and-.

Shawn: 19:25

Martina or your sister.

Justin: 19:27

Oh my God, if I was calling Martina, that would have been, I would not be sitting here on the phone with you all. No, I called my sister and I said you know, I have something to tell you, and I don't exactly remember the words I used with her, but you know how I said it. But I said, you know, I told her I was gay and she started to cry and she said I love you. And then I lost it. Like at that point I just lost my mind, right, cause that was not.

Justin: 19:53

You know, she was very supportive. She was very, very worried for me. She was very worried about how my parents would react. And you know, was I prepared? You know she asked me questions about like was I prepared to be able to, you know, go back to school? And how was I going to support myself on the? You know the job I had and you know all of that kind of stuff. You know she was like what happens if mom and dad aren't supportive. And so I got actually mad at her because I was like wait a second, today is July 3rd. I'm telling you, you're telling me all of these things. Tomorrow's July 4th, I have to tell mom and dad on Independence Day cause.

Justin: 20:31

That's the plan and Martinez in the song about it you know like come on, but I actually then I didn't tell them. I waited, and I was actually back at college a few weeks later, that summer and I went on a date with this guy. And you know this was like cause in high school I didn't date, like I went out, you know. But it wasn't. It was fake, right, it was the show that you put on right. The first couple of dates I ever went on, like every single one I was like, oh my God, this is going to be the person I married. Right, I was going through like the teenage, you know, 12 year old experience, but I was in my 20s. So I went on this date with this guy and it was horrible and all I could think about was like I really want to call my mom and tell her I was on a bad date.

Justin: 21:16

And so the next morning I got up and I drove back to my parents' house, which was about three hours away, showed up unannounced my dad had already gone to work, my mom was home, so I just hung out with her and we gardened and we did other stuff, and the whole time she was like why are you here? So my dad got home and he came home early, which it took me a while to actually realize. He like came home at like three or four o'clock in the afternoon, which was early for him, and so my mom obviously called him or something, and he came home and they were all going to like, well, let's go to dinner. And I was like I have something to tell you. And so I sat down I kind of sitting down at the dining room table, and I pulled out my notepad where I had written everything I needed to say down.

Soda: 22:02

Oh, organized, I was like yeah.

Justin: 22:06

And so I just basically went through this like speech and probably about two minutes of who the hell knows what I was saying, until I finally got to the word gay and I stopped and I just kept looking at it and to show them what you said. Telling my friends was one thing, but like this was real, like if I say this to them, like everything changes. I can always find new friends, but I can't, like this is you know. And so I said you know, I'm gay. And I started to cry and my dad was crying and my mom just was sitting there with this quite frankly, bitch, look on her face looking at me. And I got done and I said something like if I need to leave, I will call you in three days. Cause I was really worried, like if they started yelling or something like that I would. I was like I need to be able to leave, but I also want to make sure that, like I can connect with them. Right, like there was all that. And my dad just he's like Justin, why would you need to leave? And I'm like, well, I don't know how. And he's like we love you, you're our son. This is shocking, I didn't expect this, but I love you.

Justin: 23:20

And my mom is sitting there with this little smirk on her face and she said I love you. And she's like and I've known, and I'm like what do you mean? You knew? She's like I caught you trying on your sister's prom dress when you were 10 years old and I'm like well, why didn't you say something? She's like you needed to figure this out for yourself. And so it was like I mean, in some ways it was the perfect kind of for me with my family, the perfect kind of. You know, I told them we didn't talk about it for another like two years, basically, like I never went on a bad date and then called my mother right Cause it was like. You know, then it was the awkwardness of oh, now I'm talking to my parents about my love life, like I don't want to do that.

Shawn: 23:59

But I mean, like just being gay, it wasn't just woven into just your life with them.

Justin: 24:03

It was, but we, just we didn't talk about it. But we also didn't talk about, like I realized, with my sister, like until she was like in a very serious relationship with a person who became her husband, she never talked about her boyfriends, like we just have that kind of, I guess, waspy type of, we just don't talk about it.

Shawn: 24:20

But I mean, like you know, we're on the dinner table like hey, so are you dating anyone?

Justin: 24:25

No, no no, we do now. It's fascinating because that is one of the things I think that has been. So I moved from Washington DC two years ago to to coma, washington, and during that time when I left DC, I had I spent eight weeks at my parents' house in Wisconsin and three of them were with my parents there and we we had not spent that much time together, probably since I was in high school or maybe the that first year after college, and I was really worried about it because I was like gosh, are we gonna fight? Like you know, I'm in their house again, like what's going on? And it was. It was one of the best things that has happened in my life was getting to spend that time with them, and partly because, like, we started seeing each other as individual adults right, like as, oh, they're not, they are my parents and they're these individuals with these personalities and these you know everything. And they were, I think, saw the same in me and the experience I had been going through and why I was leaving DC and moving and all that, and so it took a while for us to, you know, kind of weave all of that together and though I also never after I came out. I never had to. I never felt I had to hide anything from them. I think it was me, it was more on me. I didn't tell them and they were respecting me. You know, they're kind of philosophy as well If he's gonna tell us something, he's gonna tell us something, and if not, it's his life. And you know, we support him. And so now I will say this I never. Unfortunately, my grandfather died and my grandfather was a big influence on my life and he died before I was able to tell him and I never actually said the words to my grandmother.

Justin: 26:09

But it was a couple of years after I came out where the birthday cards definitely took a turn, because all of a sudden they were like that, birthday cards that are like the half-naked men. Oh, come on Seriously. And I'm like I told my mom. I'm like did you tell grandma? And she's like no, she's like that's your thing to tell it's. You know when you're comfortable. I'm like grandma is sending me birthday cards of half-naked men. My mom's like well, maybe grandma found you in one of her dresses. And I'm like, god damn it, mom, your mom said that.

Shawn: 26:43

So that was my family. So Soda, your story is very different.

Soda: 26:49

Just a little bit. And also I just want to like say something on the record. Is that, justin, like you deserve to be in dresses, like I mean it's always a look you bring it Like, so I'm glad that I mean it's. I mean I have more of like a hobbit body, but like Justin's like tall and very, very handsome, like so I don't see what the problem is. Yeah, so my experience was different. A, I wasn't as organized as Justin. I did not, you know, pick the 4th of July.

Shawn: 27:19

Let's say, most people were not as organized as Justin, yeah.

Soda: 27:23

Yeah, I mean, I did not have a notebook, like when I, you know, I was living in DC. I had my like sort of first boyfriend, which you know, ugh, like really bad taste in men and thought that this was after. You know, I transitioned out of the Marine Corps. Like the law couldn't come after me and so I decided to drive home. My guys was like well, I'm driving home from DC to Southern Maryland, I just need to pick up my mail, like, and so that's like.

Shawn: 27:51

My mom was like why are you here? M-a-l-l-e.

Soda: 27:54

Yeah, yeah, wow. I mean, you know I will say St Mary's County has some like good book in there. You just have to really dig deep. But I think that you know I came home, you know, which was kind of out of the norm for me to do, but like she, I could tell like that she was questioning it. I said, oh, I didn't need to pick up the mail and I need to tell you something. And I just remember she just sat there and I was staring at me and you know I was like well, I feel really good you know like because obviously it's all built up and it's I had taken off like three hours of work, right, like, just, like, just, it's like a plan.

Soda: 28:32

It's like, well, I have to do it on this Wednesday, because I've already said that I'm going to do it. I have to do it. And so you know, I just remember her like staring. He's staring at me and she's like, okay, well, please don't, don't tell your father. And you know it was this whole thing and I left.

Soda: 28:47

I remember, like driving back to DC and I felt that went pretty well, like you know, like in my mind, like you know, it's kind of like okay, like not great, not great, but like not as bad. And by the time that I got home, like I just knew, like I mean, the phone messages started coming to my place of work. My mom was screaming at me and it was like for months leaving voicemails calling me a motherfucker, which was really just wrong, wrong for a variety of reasons. It was just very aggressive and also like manipulative and like crying and sobbing and the whole thing. And then, obviously, like I already shared the story about how you know, essentially the CIA like outed me to my father because of my JR's bar tab.

Justin: 29:32

Damn it, justin JR's is always Well, that's yeah. Well, we have to talk about your judgment in general there.

Soda: 29:39

Exactly. Listen, I am a moth to the flame for $8,. You know power hour, but you know like. And then, like, my dad and mom have very specific questions with like. But do you know that you're? Have you experimented with this? And I was like, are you asking like, did I get to second base? Like, do you know what I mean Like? What do you mean Like? Do you mean like butt stuff? Or like, what do you mean Like? You know like, like a waterfall of dicks in my mouth, like I'm not sure what you're looking for.

Soda: 30:12

And I just had to say yes, yes to all of them, yes to all of it, a through F. Yes, like, yes, I've done it all. And my, I just remember like, how I mean we just went back and forth. They were like, please don't tell anyone, please don't tell anyone. And I, you know, I felt like shame because they were so torn up and my mom would call me and saying that, like the shotgun that they kept in, like his closet, like they lay there at night holding each other and crying and saying that they're going to like blow their heads off because their son is gay, and it's just like all of this stuff. And I would love to say that, like you know, it lasted for, you know, like four or five months and then it stopped. No, it just kept going. It just kept going and going and going until we just didn't talk anymore.

Soda: 30:56

I started like losing my hair, like during that time, just because of fucking genetics, and I, you know, shaved my head like in the Marine Corps and I just kept it. Like Justin never knew me with hair, like so, like you know, the thing is is that I'm a beautiful bald man and, of course, I come home to Southern Maryland, like, and it's my mom's birthday, so it's like we all go to the Olive Garden, which is the fanciest thing in town. And you know, I didn't really understand that what Olive Garden actually was. But you know, until I, like went to an actual, real Italian restaurant you know, it was so funny because she pulled me aside of the parking lot because I wore like a v-neck, like sweater, but without like an undershirt, like just, I don't know, I don't think it looked that risque, and she goes is this a gay thing? I was like what do you mean? And she was just like I. She was like that you're not wearing a shirt, and she was like also your hair, and I'm like mom, I'm going bald. And she was like, is that because you're gay? And I was like no, and all these conversations are always so weird.

Soda: 32:03

She would have these moments where and he did too of like, well, I know what you're doing in DC and I'm like what she was like with your martinis in the clubs and I was like I think you're missing. I mean sure, maybe, but like this is not sex in the city. Like what are you? Like what are what are you visualizing? That that's not my life. I mean, maybe it was sometimes, but like not really in the way that they thought that it was. But yeah, I, I am bald because of all the water fallout dicks. That's what happened.

Justin: 32:34

I had a dime for every, for every time you had a waterfall of dicks.

Soda: 32:37

Yeah, yeah, sean never invites me back, ever again. I.

Justin: 32:43

Literally am in my mind envisioning an actual waterfall. That is just dicks.

Soda: 32:50

Yeah, and just to say too is like that's I meant waterfall of dicks. Okay, if you watch for a housewise of Orange County, it was like just like the stack of vaginas, but that's I.

Justin: 33:03

Don't even know how to bring this back. Well, you know, so that's funny, like, obviously that's. It's horrible that your parents had that reaction and and you know, I think there's a, there's a lot of people that that's how their families react and, you know, in a non supportive way, which is, you know, I'm really unfortunate because it just there's so much of you know, just life that can be better if we just treated each other a little bit nicer, right? But I will say that's what with my family, as you were talking, I was just thinking about it, like I remember you know my parents. They said it was my you know my story to tell, my my you know news to share. And you know they also did tell some of their friends, like they're very good friends, hmm, and at first, when, because somebody came up to me in a wedding and said, oh, how are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm fine. And they're like, oh, any news? And I'm like, no, everything's good. And they're like, oh, your dad said you were gay. It's a little brute force, but okay, yeah, but it was.

Justin: 34:07

It was funny because, like at the time, I was like, oh, why are they telling people?

Justin: 34:11

And then now I look back on it and it is kind of the. There were signals that I don't think I knew at the time that they were supportive, right that they were, you know, in my corner cheering me on, it just was the very northern Midwest, like, you know, silent way of doing it, which I wish everybody had more of that experience because it, you know, just having this family support, because I think that was, you know, that probably in the end coming out and then actually having support around me was probably what helped, you know, get me through my mental health issues that I was undergoing and and you know, probably is what saved my life. You know, like with soda, it was the Marine Corps. For me it was, I think, having that support network that I didn't even really know was there at the time I was probably too there's, just too naive or too not, you know, to wrapped up in my own crap to Actually see what see it happening. But but as I look back, it definitely was there.

Shawn: 35:07

You know this makes me Think of something else.

Shawn: 35:10

I am increasingly Grateful for my upbringing, in a way that I wasn't when I didn't live on the coast, and that's because so, like when I moved to Milwaukee which I'm sure to you know anyone in, you know, like New York, chicago, la, miami is a backwater but it was a big city to me.

Shawn: 35:29

So when I moved to Milwaukee and then I'm gonna started spending much more time in like Chicago I would hang around with like queer folks and think, you know, like I was, I'm, you know I finally arrived and with my people, but you know they were constantly calling me out like I wasn't using the right language or, you know, I didn't know how to talk about being gay or, you know, was queer the appropriate word to use or not? And I think a lot of that has to do with I just grew up in a place where nobody knew the language, nobody knew how to, you know, navigate these types of relationships right. And I think now, in our hyper polarized society, I actually am really grateful for that because I have a lot more grace for people that come from Conserve, socially conservative areas, because there's a there's a difference between being hateful and not knowing something. Yeah, and I think we often castigate people for not knowing something as being hateful, when they're really just doing their best and they just don't know.

Justin: 36:29

Yeah yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I think you know, I even think about it. I mean, some of the stuff that I, you know, even a, you know a decade ago, would say, you know, in relation to, like, the transgendered community, right, like some of the wording I would use at that time was, was born of, but out of ignorance and and because, especially the you know, I think sys, a white, male, gay society is, we're just, we're bred to just be assholes. In some ways, I like that idea of there's the hatefulness that is out there, right, there's the people that are, you know, willfully ignorant to, you know, say things and then when they're told that they, you know what, what it means to somebody or the impact it has, they don't care.

Justin: 37:13

Like, those people, I think in some ways are beyond what I would will deal with, because I am right, I'm still learning at this age, right, like I'm almost 44, and there's still stuff that I'm learning about being in the queer community, and I think you're you're you made a really good point that if, if you're hateful because of you know, you're just hateful, or you have a willful ignorance, like that's really hard, but if it's you just didn't know, you didn't know. You didn't grow up with people that you know we're queer, you didn't grow up with people from different races and so, like you're learning that and if you're willing to learn that you know, those are the people I think that I would, I want to actually engage with because you can have a conversation.

Soda: 37:54

You'll learn something from it.

Shawn: 37:55

They'll learn something and you know I would learn something from it as well, so I agree with that so this is a good segue, and I think you even mentioned this a little bit. So the gay male community, especially the white gay male community, can be particularly harsh. We eat our own and I guess I'm wondering how that's informed, how you kind of interact with the community, how you fit into the community, how you feel about yourself or how you've kind of approached your own development as a queer person.

Soda: 38:23

Oh my, gosh, can I have like a five minute like drink break before I can? Justin and I have been part of Very specific communities, like that's how we know each other in DC, in DC, and I think that, looking back, like I don't really have I mean, apart from the folks that I'm talking to right now I don't have a lot of like male, like gay friends like in my life and and I think that for me there's like different pockets, right. Like I think you know, like in my 20s you know Slet shame for hooking up too much or whatever it might be. You know, as people do, like in their 20s, like by male members of the gay community, like. And then in my 30s you know like kind of in this community, that just never part of looking back, like we were part of a football league and I don't maybe Justin disagree like I look back at that time and obviously the towel. I met Justin, the time that my husband and there are a lot of other people that were wonderful.

Soda: 39:31

Looking back, though, like it was just so ruthless and you know, in my 20s, like I was not pretty enough, too short, like you know, like too fat, whatever. And then in my 30s, too old, too short, right like not athletic enough, like it was just you just could never win, and I felt like it was so universal that that I mean that's that's why I was drawn to be friends with Justin the first place, because he was just more accepting, right and a little bit more like Open-hearted. And I feel like I've never quite found my place in the queer community and the way that I would like to like. I found it more vicious and maybe it's because of my own Approach, like, but it also, in turn, like made me mean, like I was, had also been mean to people in different pockets because of what I was taught or what you know.

Soda: 40:21

I was like survival of the fittest and looking and kind of talking to younger Queer people like they're different, maybe similar, but also very different experiences too, where there's just a little bit more Understanding or willingness to be wrong and self-correct and a little bit more body positivity. You know I, you know I love my body, like there's nothing wrong with it, it is what it is and I'm proud of it. But like I was just taught to like always want to you, especially by gay men, to find ways to seek something else. It was just always like somebody was more gorgeous or somebody was hotter or somebody was better. I just could never win. And then I shit on the people that are maybe outside of me, that could have been great friends, like it's just a never ending cycle.

Justin: 41:12

I totally, totally get that. And first off, I mean thank you for saying that I have an open heart. That's very nice of you, because I don't feel that I feel like I am. I feel like I'm an asshole. No, but I feel like you know, to what you said, I think that I'm suspicious of any gay man Because that's how I felt like same thing right in the early 20s. You're experimenting of like going on dates or hooking up or your first relationships or whatever, and you know it's really I think it's hard to kind of figure out how to find friends that don't start off as sexual friends, right, like, and or in some way evolve into it or some way evolve into it. Yeah, yeah. And so I don't have same thing, I don't have a. Well, up until I moved to Tacoma, I didn't have a lot of gay male friends.

Shawn: 42:13

I have maybe a handful that are people that I actually trust and you know would True, because it does feel to me, justin, like wherever you go, wherever you land, you just happen to like blend into the queer community.

Justin: 42:24

Which is so funny because I never feel like I do I like it actually gives me anxiety to think about. It's one of the things I really liked.

Shawn: 42:32

I noticed about you in Milwaukee. One of the things I was actually attracted to as a person that I'd like really looked up to is I was like here's this guy no offense, but I was like here's this guy that comes from like bum, fuck Wisconsin and he's like so comfortable in his own skin and he's just like he's you know he does himself and he's just like super cool with that and like anyone that has a problem with it, go fuck him. You know like and I don't mean that literally, you know, I was just like I was super impressed. So to hear that you had you have anxiety about that is it's not surprising, but it's surprising.

Justin: 43:06

Yeah, no, that's so funny to hear, sean, because I mean because honestly, like sort of with you, like I mean part of the reason we became, you know, first, I think, became friends was one where we are two people that get places early and so we had the practice, you know, before everybody else, and two because you know we both like get crazy competitive and would scream, you know things on the sidelines to our teammates because you know, I have no athletic ability but I can yell really loud and so I thought you know with you, so I thought you were, you know, kind of the same thing of just being able to acclimate to everything and and same with you, sean, and so it's funny that we all have that kind of experience.

Justin: 43:48

But also inside we're having that, you know that other termals or whatever. But I do think you know, when sort of you said one thing about the, the body positivity or the you know being, that is the one thing I've loved about getting older is like I don't, just don't give a shit if I have abs, I don't need them, and for people that work out and that's what they want, that's great, but that's not me and and like to be comfortable like that. I just think is is one of the things that I've really enjoyed about. Like, being out of my twenties and thirties is like well.

Soda: 44:19

I'm in my forties.

Justin: 44:20

I'm supposed to have a dad bond now. Right Like so, here it is.

Soda: 44:24

So did you agree with that? I, I do. I mean, I think that for me I don't, and I do work out, like I run, I lift weights, I do all the things, but I do it for me and I do it to be stronger and because I actually enjoy it. I'm not going to some fancy-ass gym like wearing like ridiculous tank tops and like winking at people or whatever happened. I just think that I am just in a space and I would agree with Justin too Like, I think that where it doesn't really matter as much and like, really like, while I I love being around young people, I think it's great and like learning from them and hearing that, but like, goodness gracious, I'm so glad that I'm not in my twenties anymore, like I really do, I love my forties.

Soda: 45:13

I think it's been, it's been the best experience. I think there's more acceptance internally for me and also knowledge about who I am and why I am in ways that there haven't been. But yeah, I think that it's. It's just kind of funny, like, as I remember, like in the when we were in the league right, and we, you know, we like to drink. It was very fun and I think that we had a very good core group there, but I just remember one of them you know, and you know who I'm talking about like taking me to the side and just telling me you're a bit much, and I was like get in line, buddy.

Soda: 45:47

I've always been a bit much. Like it's not about here, like this is just who I am, but it just it's. You know, if you don't conform into certain ways like people have a hard time accepting it, and I also think that by not conforming to it as well into their ideals, I think it pushes, it makes them uncomfortable, cause then if it's like Justin, like you and I too, I think we made other people uncomfortable by doing things that were a little like ridiculous and kind of making fun of football. We didn't take it seriously. I mean, I took my face painting and my costume seriously, but look, I didn't really. And the drinking seriously and the chicken tenders at Nellie seriously shameless plug. But I think that the rest of it, like I think we did make people uncomfortable a little bit with that, you know, of kind of like owning our stuff and being louder. I think there's something to be said about that.

Shawn: 46:37

You know what I've always kind of struggled with there has been and there continues to be. You know there's a hegemony in the queer community. You know to be white, you know to be a white man in the gay community is, you know, the top of hegemonically. It's, you know, top of society. But you know you've often heard, not interested in feminine men or not interested in heavier men, et cetera. And I've struggled with this because there is a difference between saying you know, I'm not interested in feminine men, and that is different than being misogynistic. And I often feel like what's actually happening is this is masking, like misogyny and it is masking racism.

Justin: 47:19

Yeah, I mean, sean, from my experience. I think that I think you're right. I think sometimes that is masking something else, and especially when you can be on, you know things like Grinder, or you know back in, you know my 20s manhunt and you could, you know you got a. You know, right. You know you were on these platforms where you could just say things like you know, not into whatever you weren't into, and people were okay with that, right, like, oh, I'm okay if this person only wants people that are, you know, six foot and 175 pounds. Like oh, well, that's okay, right, like there was just, it was almost like like the shopping aspect of it, like, oh, I'm out shopping for my perfect shirt and at the same time, you know what, if I'm funny, is like I do know people I have acquaintances who you know are work out all the time and are very into you know what they look like and I'm very happy for them because that makes them happy, right, like I've gotten to the point now where I'm like, if that's what makes them happy, that's great and here's what makes me happy.

Justin: 48:26

So if we're gonna be in our, if we're gonna be in a friendship, or you know, you have to accept that I you know that I'm gonna be this way. I'm gonna accept that you're gonna be that way, right, like I think in my 20s, 30s it was much more oh, I have to conform. I either have to conform to something that I'm not or you know so to your point I have to be a little bit extra, because that's how you get the attention, that's how you get the space to just be. So, yeah, I do think that there's a piece of it, though, that is masking something. And you know, quite frankly, like I'll be real clear like I wear a kaftan some would call them mumus like in warm weather, at my house, out on the deck right, like, like having a glass of wine and a kaftan, like that's fucking fabulous, Like I don't think that makes me any less of a man and it's actually makes me happy. So, like, let's, like we can just let people do that stuff. I don't know.

Shawn: 49:26

So that, all being said and true, we also all agree that the queer community has been supportive and affirming for each of us too. So, soda, how have you experienced that?

Soda: 49:38

In like positivity or kaftans. If you could touch on both of those Sure Kaftans, I just don't think that I have the shape for them. I also am just shorter than Justin, so I just feel like it would look like a just a longer like gown, which I don't know is with some of the patterns that I've seen of the kaftans, I don't know if it would quite work for me.

Justin: 50:01

It is Soda Soda, it will work. I'm going to send you some to try. You have now around your pool.

Soda: 50:08

it is perfect place for kaftans, so I mean that sounds really nice In terms of, I would say, like positivity, like it sounds very doom and gloob like, and then all these men hated my body, like hundreds of them in DC For me actually to call it out a little bit too, I feel that I found more positivity from black gay men, transgender, like lesbians, and not white gay men, right.

Soda: 50:40

So I do feel like that there was this very specific areas where I felt really warm welcoming and acceptance from these specific areas, and I remember having this very strong lesbian friend group that really took me under their wings, like I was trying to think back of, like I don't even remember like how I met this group, but they were when I was in my 20s.

Soda: 51:03

They were mostly in their 40s and had houses and lives, and it was just I really looked up to them and they really instilled in me that I was capable of anything you know and like honestly did not take shit from like other men that I was seeing, and like they kept questioning my choices of dates. But I think that clearly I didn't learn for a very long time. Yeah, I mean I think there is a lot of positivity there and I would agree with what both of you have said too, is that you know? I love the fact that I'm in a space where I can continue to learn about the queer community, continue to be open to being wrong and self-correcting and learning and evolving as it continues to grow. That is actually kind of beautiful.

Justin: 51:52

So I think you're right. I think I found I will say this I do think that the queer community is very supportive when, if we are attacked from the outside, some of these people that you know probably you know would be people that I may not have hung out with or felt comfortable around before, you know if something was happening, I know they would be there right to protect the community from the outside. I think you're right, so to speak, as far as the you know finding from, you know people of color, transgender individuals, you know lesbians. That was and continues to be some of the support group that I have. That you know, I actually don't think it's the gay part of white male gays. I think it's the white part. That just, I agree, yeah, and that's the piece that I think.

Justin: 52:44

Now, where I am, you know, I really look at it and think, okay, I do sit in a place of privilege, I have to use that for good, I have to be supportive of the community that I'm in and I don't mean that just to quirk me, but the community I live in and the people that are around and you know, bring that privilege to help other folks that don't have it. And I think what was funny is I found that support, though, from people that didn't even have the privilege I had, right, like it was the people that, like you, were saying Soda, that just really did help get through, get me through some of the more darker times in my life.

Soda: 53:20

It isn't funny. Like Justin now, right, like I didn't think about this then, you know in my own like white privilege, ignorance, like, but now I'm thinking, how did they even have space yes, a, they were surviving. How did they even have space for, even regardless, like, just like the way that I was raised, like understanding the world, and how did they had space for me, like, and I think that that is, that is something just remarkable that I'm extremely grateful for now. But, gosh, I was such a privileged asshole, like why was I, like you know what I mean? Like seeking refuge with you know, these sub parts of the queer community that needed my support, right, I mean how selfish, like it just it's Bako is my mind a little bit now. I mean I'm grateful to them, but it's also, at the same time, like being a little bit more aware and working on it every day, like gosh, like I wish I had a clue back then.

Justin: 54:22

Yeah, how about you, Sean? How, what? What has your experience been with the positive support from the queer community?

Shawn: 54:30

So, if I'm completely honest, I have always been afraid of the queer community, and I think if yeah, if I'm honest, I still am I have always avoided gay clubs. I've avoided groups of gay men specifically, and part of that is, I think, just my personality, but part of it is I had experiences very early on coming out, so I did what the only thing I knew, which was like let's go up to Green Bay, justin, you know, green Bay, you know, go to the gay clubs. And I remember like being so excited that I was finally out, and I had a friend we snuck up to the clubs in Green Bay, and so I was so excited to be around my people and, within minutes, was like oh, these are not my people, just feeling very much like I don't fit into this. I don't have, you know, the perfect body. I don't have the perfect personality, you know I was also.

Shawn: 55:29

I grew up very poor, which I don't think I looked poor, but I thought I looked poor, you know, and so I carried that with me, just this inferiority. So where I found supportive community for me, though, is I've always been an academic, so I got involved on the activist side, and that's where I found community where it was much less about my dating life, to be honest, and less about you know how I looked and kind of built a community for myself. That way it's created a great space for me. You know, like I was able to go into like queer studies and I was able to, you know, get into queer research and queer history and queer politics, which has really affirmed me and which has really given me a lot of agency I think, over you know how I see myself in the queer community in a way that I couldn't find otherwise.

Justin: 56:19

That's Sean, that's really, I mean this. This has been a fascinating because I've known both of you now for over a decade but I didn't, like this conversation has been fascinating because I didn't know some of this about either of you. And from my perspective, right, sean, like I, when I first met you and we're hanging out and then you know, over the course of our friendship, like I have always been so impressed by the community that you have, because it is the academic activists, like folks that are out there like not you know, just going to the bar, but like I mean, you know, yes, you go to the bar or you go out and drink or whatever, but it's like you had all of this other like stuff that I was like, oh, how do I do that? Like I, I want to have that community right.

Justin: 57:08

Or you know, soda with you and like I just still think about like you were, you are extra and I love it because like you'd walk into a room and it's like it's a party then right, and you have fun and it's not going to be boring, and like and to hear both of you kind of talk about your own like you know experiences and you know the feelings that you were having at that same time, and it's fascinating to me because, you know, I was like, oh, here are two of my friends who are like they got their shit together and I'm over here, you know, like knocking my head against the fence because they can't figure out how to open the door right. Like it's funny that you know the perceptions we have of each other and of ourselves and how you know the how other people perceive us as well, cause I yeah, I don't know Second glass of wine is kicking in.

Shawn: 58:01

Justin, who was your first male crush.

Justin: 58:04

Neil Patrick Harris and then Ricky Martin. Oh yeah, 1990s. Ricky Martin, yes, like a bomb, bomb like a bomb bomb.

Justin: 58:18

Oh, my God, you can shake my anyway. Well, but NPH. I remember watching Doogie Hauser and thinking like not knowing right, Like what was going on and cause I was, you know, not quite aware, but just being like I really want to have a computer where I take my journal. I want to be a doctor. I hate the sight of blood and I want Doogie to be my friend and we're going to cuddle in scrubs, exactly Soda Um.

Soda: 58:51

Conway Twitty, I mean, I think that it was definitely like Conway Twitty, kenny Rogers and Randy Travis, you know, I kind of have a maybe like a daddy thing, I don't know. But Conway Twitty, though, especially in his younger days, like I don't know, like tight fit and jeans, like I was just kind of thinking about his jeans, you know, when that was on the radio, yeah, could see that His hair was so swoopy. Those were some tight curls.

Justin: 59:19

Yeah, once Tim McGraw cut his mullet he moved up on my list. I'm just saying the mullet thing didn't get me. But Tim McGraw, without the mullet, you just want to get closer to.

Soda: 59:30

Faith Hill.

Justin: 59:31

Well, I mean that's it, yeah, yes, I don't blame you at all.

Soda: 59:36

Faith, if you're listening maybe you can just have Martina call her for you, oh my. God, could you imagine Okay.

Shawn: 59:45

So you want to know tangent, something that I just learned Soda, you're probably going to choke on this, but I just learned is that Fancy by Riva McIntyre was actually written by Bobby Gentry.

Soda: 59:59

Oh, my God Sean.

Shawn: 1:00:01

I just you know why? Because we were at an estate sale yesterday came across Bobby Gentry album and I was like, oh my gosh. Soda Canter mentioned this and I've never really listened to her music, so I bought it.

Soda: 1:00:11

Wait, did you buy the Fancy album?

Shawn: 1:00:13

Yes.

Soda: 1:00:14

Oh, my God, it's so good. Two dollars, that, okay. You need to look that up too, because like that those are hard to come by. That is an excellent album.

Justin: 1:00:24

It is. It's really good, it's very good. Yeah, sean, if it makes you feel any better. I was this moment old when I learned that.

Shawn: 1:00:32

You should listen to it. It was 1967. Oh my gosh, it was like 25 years before Riva did it. Yeah.

Justin: 1:00:41

And I thought it was risque for Riva to do it. But like in the sixth, oh, I love that.

Shawn: 1:00:46

All right. So, speaking of music, what is a song or band that you were really into in your 20s that has not held up over the years? Oh my God.

Soda: 1:00:55

I don't know if any of it doesn't not hold up Like I think I felt like I was really obsessed with Matchbox 20. Me too, but I still felt pretty legit. I still think that that's legit, me too. And then, what was that other girl group dream? Yes, but I also think that what is that song, though, that they have? He loves you not. I still think that's the song of the bop. That's so good. And Mr Colifo man, that's really weird, like dream and Matchbox 20, but anyway, I pass. Pass on to the next person, justin.

Justin: 1:01:36

Well, so I basically stopped listening to new music when I was like 15, according to all of my friends because most of the things that I listen to on a regular basis are from the 80s and 90s. So, but I would say that one of my favorite songs my senior year of high school, I think was Chumbo Womba Tubfun.

Shawn: 1:02:01

That's on my list.

Justin: 1:02:03

And it's still if it comes on. I still am like right there, like yes, and then the whole time I'm like this is horrible. Why am I? Why am I excited about this?

Soda: 1:02:15

Do you mean horribly good?

Justin: 1:02:18

Yes, horrible in a good way, you know who else Aqua, oh Barbie girl Like to this day I'm still like that song comes on.

Shawn: 1:02:27

I'm like this is the dumbest fucking song and I'm still dancing Yep. So I guess, yeah, I don't know when does that fall? Where, if like, has it held up? Has it not? Like it clearly has not held up, but it still means something.

Soda: 1:02:39

Yeah, the feeling is there because I think that anytime that you hear the songs like it's, I remember even just like recently, like my nephew's like overheard, like our like 90s Spotify list or whatever that would that was like some playlist and I just remember they were like this music is so bad, like, and but for us, like it just it's so nostalgic and it feels good and you remember where you were and it just brings up so many great memories. So I don't know, I think if it's still in folks a feeling for you, I think it's good.

Justin: 1:03:12

I will say this, that I did have a period where I tried to, where I pretended I liked grunge and metal much more than I do. Whoa, I loved grunge, no, no, no, and I appreciate the musical value, I appreciate all of it, right but I pretended I don't even know. I think I was a freshman in high school and I pretended that I was into like the grunge scene and really like metal bands. And I remember somebody was talking to me about Led Zeppelin and I, like, had a full on conversation with them about Led Zeppelin, having never heard an actual Led Zeppelin song. And again, this was also, though the like, trying to fit in in my community, you know, in the town I grew up with, everybody's doing this. Well, I shouldn't be blasting Amy Grant, I guess, because everybody's listening to it. Listen, I don't know. Anyway, she is awesome. I love Amy Grant.

Shawn: 1:04:07

She's somebody else who got really fucked over for trying something new. Yeah, yeah, and she like conformed back.

Justin: 1:04:15

Although she well, this is a whole other podcast, because she has been very, though, supportive of the queer community in ways that I didn't even know until recently. I guess I don't know either. Yeah, Like because of the persona that is the. You know what we think of right, Like anyway.

Shawn: 1:04:33

So the Christian persona is what you're talking about. Yeah, all right, All right. Final question what's something interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to or doing lately, and it doesn't have to be related to this topic, but it can be.

Soda: 1:04:47

I've been watching and also hating myself for watching Tell Me Lies, which is on Hulu. I love the show and I love the writing because it basically, like it, transports me back. We've talked about, like the 2000s it's kind of around this time of the group of college students. If you have not watched it, you should. They're all horrible and basically I am every single one of these people and so I love watching it. But I also hate myself and it brings up a lot of really like deep-seated things about my university experience in the most delightful ways.

Justin: 1:05:23

I haven't even heard of it, have you, justin? I have not, but it's definitely on the list now.

Soda: 1:05:28

I will say that the everybody is like attractive and like. They definitely hype up like the 2000s in ways that it did not look like it's a little bit more glammed up in places than what it actually was to actually live through it, but you should definitely look it up. It has twists and turns and it is. These people are horrendous.

Shawn: 1:05:52

Tell Me Lies, justin.

Justin: 1:05:55

Well, I am anxiously waiting the next installment of Morgantown Blues that I hope to receive soon from my friend, Soda Canter and I'm also. I'm actually some friends of mine at work and I have been doing some reading of various different books and one of the ones we're reading right now is called After the Ecstasy, the Laundry, which is all about like after you hit your zen moment, like how do you keep like that going in your life? And I've really been doing a lot of like that type of reading of what is our kind of purpose for being on the earth and the whole, you know, spiritualism around yoga and that type of thing and getting kind of into that, which has been fun because it's so different than kind of my upbringing and Catholicism and yet also very strangely related. But yeah, so that's a. It's a great book.

Justin: 1:06:56

Gosh, darn it, justin, like I'm telling you my Hulu show and you have to do that Well okay, I mean, yeah, I mean, but I'm also rewatching, like the expanse for the I don't know six time, because, okay, this is after all of our conversations about like people's bodies, like there's a superficial reason they are attractive and it's space.

Soda: 1:07:20

Okay, way to redeem yourself, that's good. I mean, I like the other stuff too, like it was nice, but it's just like gosh, justin, yeah, you're so smart and so perfect, whatever.

Shawn: 1:07:32

All right, you two. Soda canter, Thanks for being here Again. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much Loved it. And Justin Hentchis, you're no longer a virgin to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Justin: 1:07:43

Oh, I finally got to pop this cherry. Thanks, Sean.

Shawn: 1:07:47

I feel like I set you up for the worst outro, but you took a swing at it, so I did. I did.

Justin: 1:07:56

That's how I want to be remembered.

Shawn: 1:08:08

The world, in many ways and across many countries, is becoming increasingly threatening for queer folks. Last week I talked to Dr Alexander Kondekoff about how violent anti-gay rhetoric on the part of elites, specifically politicians, is directly linked to increases in violent acts committed against queer folks and the queer community In the United States. This type of violent crime is on the rise and it comes at a time when some political elites, particularly Republicans, have taken direct rhetorical and legislative aim at queer people. In this environment it's tempting to seek shelter, to hide. I wrestle with this, to just keep my head down and get through life, and if that means I have to keep some things hidden or avoid being my full self in certain places, so be it. But in fact that's the very intent of this type of anti-gay rhetoric and legislation to make us all so afraid and anxious that we either conform, hide or die. The only remedy is to some, encourage and stand in the face of it, knowing full well that some of us will fall. We will not all get out of this alive. We're dying every day, to be sure, directly through physical violence committed against us and indirectly through depression and shame. But we all lose if we hide One thing that we can do to make it bearable is to be our true selves in the face of force's intent on disappearing us to show each other that we see each other, that we hear each other, that we have each other's backs. We are not as alone as they would like us to feel.

Shawn: 1:09:44

You, queer kid in Florida needing to talk to someone but knowing that anything you say to anyone at your school will be reported, that you don't control your own story anymore. You, parent in Texas struggling with the decision to take your trans child to the doctor and fearful that you'll be reported to the state for child abuse if you do it. You, budding drag queen in rural North Dakota, afraid to be out after dark. You, little Mormon lesbian with a crush on a girl at your church but afraid of excommunication. You, justin, organizing your thoughts in a script to come out to your family, probably because you feel you need to make a strong case for why people should still love you after you tell them that you're gay.

Shawn: 1:10:27

You, soda, keeping a secret from some of your closest buddies in the military because maybe the government will dishonorably discharge you, humiliate you if they knew you were gay. All of you. I promise you you are not alone. We need to tell each other who we are. It is a matter of survival. Whew, alright, check back next Friday and every Friday for a new episode of Deep Dive Chat soon, folks.