The Space to Just Be Queer (Independence Day)

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about my evolution as a human being, generally, but more specifically as a gay man – where I come from, how it influenced the trajectory of my life, how I fit into the community, how I’ve changed, and also how the world has changed (for good and bad) – and what does that mean for my future as a gay man, as a queer person.

And, I thought it would be interesting to talk to some friends of mine who might be in the same boat –gay men in our 40s. And, I thought it might be even MORE interesting to record that conversation and share it with you all – because I doubt that we’re alone in our reflection and our thoughts. So, today, I’m talking to Soda Canter – who you might remember from an earlier episode of Deep Dive, when we talked about his artistry and his music. And, I’m also talking to Justin Hentges, a new guest of Deep Dive, and a longtime friend of mine. This conversation is very heavy at times, and very silly at times. This is a wide-ranging conversation. We talk about Mathew Sheppard, and the influence his torture and death had on our young queer lives, our coming out stories, racism, misogyny, and transphobia in the queer community, where some of our greatest support from the queer community has come from, who our first crushes were, the utility of caftans, and whatever happened to Amy Grant?
 
Mentioned:
Nellie’s Sport Bar
JRs Bar
Tell Me Lies
After the Ecstasy, the Laundry - Jack Kornfield
The Expanse
Martina McBride
Reba McEntire
Matchbox Twenty
Faith Hill
Bobbie Gentry
Amy Grant

Recommended:
Morgantown Blues

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**Artwork: Dovi Design
**Music: Joystock

Transcript

The Space to Just Be (Independence Day)

Justin: [00:00:00] You know, in a strange way, I think that because of the violence and just the horror of that, it, it actually, there was actually, it actually gave me some resolve to keep coming out. Right? Like it was a, i I, I can't go back in the closet because, because people are being killed for being gay. Like, I have to be out and I have to, I have to live this life cuz that's the only way it's gonna be better for, for me and for other people.

Right? Like, there, there was that piece of it that just, I think, you know, for, for all of the horribleness of that crime, you know, that might have been one of the, one of the good things that, you know, we were able, or I was able to take from that.

Shawn: Welcome to Deep Dive with me, Shawn c Fettig. I've been thinking a lot lately about my evolution as a human being generally, but more specifically as a gay man, where I come from, how it influenced the trajectory of my life. How I fit into the community, how I've changed, and also how the world has changed for good and bad, and what does that mean for my [00:01:00] future as a gay man, as a queer person.

And I thought it would be interesting to talk to some friends of mine who might be in the same boat, gay men in our forties. And I thought it might be even more interesting to record that conversation and share it with you all because I doubt that we're alone in our reflection and our thoughts. So today I'm talking to Soda Canter, who you might remember from an earlier episode of Deep Dive when we talked about his artistry and his music.

And I'm also talking to Justin Hentges, a new guest of Deep Dive and a longtime friend of mine. This conversation is very heavy at times and also very silly at times. This is a wide ranging conversation. We talk about Matthew Shepherd and the influence his torture and death had on our young queer lives, our coming out stories, racism, misogyny, and transphobia in the queer community.

Where some of our greatest support from the queer community has come from, who our first crushes were, the utility of caftans and whatever happened to Amy Grant. [00:02:00] I'm hoping that for some of you, maybe hearing our conversation might resonate, maybe even spark some similar conversations for you with some of your friends and family, whatever your tribe is, and if you feel alone in these thoughts and in your world, hopefully we, Justin Soda and I can be a kind of proxy in some small way for the things you consider and you reflect on in this time that we're living through when the world can seem well can actually be particularly dangerous and scary.

I think it's important to make concerted efforts to reach out to each other, to share our stories, to be a support when we can and to ask for support when we need it. And so I truly believe that conversations like this today, outside of our heads, can be unifying and empowering. And remind us that even if and when we feel lonely, we're not alone.

I wanna note, we do talk about violence that's being committed against the queer community in this conversation, [00:03:00] and it was recorded before the shooting at Club Q in Colorado Springs. If you like this episode or any episode, please feel free to give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube.

And as always, if you have any thoughts, questions, or comments, please feel free to email me at deep dive with Shawn gmail.com. 

Let's do a deep dive.

Justin 

Hentges, this is your first time on the podcast. Thanks for being here. How are you? 

Justin: Hey Shawn. Thanks for having me. I'm doing well. How are you doing? I'm doing okay. 

Shawn: And Soda Canter, a veteran, literally and a veteran of the podcast, how are you?

Soda: I'm doing great. Thank you for having me back. 

Shawn: So I have 

a drink in my hand and I'm not the only 1:00 AM I?

Justin: No, I don't drink anymore. Shawn . . 

Shawn: What are you drinking? 

Justin: I have a glass of red wine, no ice cubes. Although I do like an ice cube in my wine at times. I did just [00:04:00] hear an ice cube though. 

Soda: Yeah, it's, it's all of mine. It's my, it's my Grandma Canter special, which is what it just basically half a bottle of white, cheap white wine and any kind, and then you just douse it with seltzer and like so many ice cubes.

And it's, it's a delight. Wait, what do you mean half a bottle of white wine? I mean, I just have a gigantic glass . It's actually not a wine glass. It's basically just half a bottle. Yeah, I feel I'm feeling judged. .

Shawn: No, I'm actually intrigued. I mean, I have nothing against ice in wine. 

Soda: Yeah. I feel, I mean, I feel like it gets a bad rap, but it's nice to know that I'm in a friend group right now that likes occasional ice in their wine, 

Shawn: so, okay.

So the whole purpose of this podcast is I wanted to talk to the two of you about, since we're all kind of relatively the same age group, to have a conversation, not about what it's like to be in, you know, our forties as queer folks, but to kind of reflect on what was it [00:05:00] like to be queer in our twenties, and then how does that stack up to what it's like to be queer in our forties?

And so my first question for you then, soda is, would you have put ice in your wine in your twenties? 

Soda: Absolutely. I mean, especially if somebody else was buying, like I would've, I would've drank anything. It wouldn't have mattered. Yeah, absolutely. 

Justin: Soda. Would you have done it? Like would you have, would you have done it just in full view of everyone or would you have tried to like, do it on the sly?

Right? Like, I'm gonna try to get a little little bit of ice for my water glass slipping into the wine glass, or what do you just, 

Soda: you know, me and I think that there's many parts of me that maybe are a little bit more polite, but like, with drinking, like there's no, I, I wouldn't have cared. Yeah. I probably would've done it just to piss people off.

Especially at like a cocktail party. Yeah. Especially in my twenties. , 

Shawn: let's start at, well, the proverbial queer beginning, which is coming out stories. Justin, what's yours? 

Justin: So, I came out when I was 19. I [00:06:00] actually came out the day that Matthew Shepherd was was assaulted. And obviously it was a few days before, you know, we knew anything about it.

And I, you know, just told, I told a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine, and from there just kind of kept telling people, and it's not like, I wanna say maybe like the, you know, kind of traditional coming out from the vantage point of, I had grown up in a very small town conservative part of the country in northern Wisconsin and, you know, felt very ashamed during high school and all of that, and, you know, was, had depression and you know, was suicidal.

And, you know, when I came out, had struggled for a couple of years with all of that and, and you know, I think though that, you know, there's nothing like, there was no, there's not like any, you know, movie moment or anything like that. It was just you know, realizing that if I didn't come to terms with this, that I wouldn't be around to see my forties.

And so, you know, just taken the plunge and told my friend Megan and she was incredibly supportive and [00:07:00] then, you know, just started telling a few other folks and then, you know, just kind of went from there. 

Shawn: Matthew Shepherd was a big influence on me coming out as well. Mm-hmm. , I think I had known before.

I mean, I did know before I actually came out that I was gay. Mm-hmm. . And, but I actually did that thing where I was like, literally, if I don't say it out loud, you know, or once I say it out loud, then I really am. So I remember practicing in front of a mirror saying like, okay, I'm gay, but I actually had like a really hard time doing it.

Yeah. But yeah, Matthew Shepard, it was at that, that moment in my life. Which is really interesting that it was for you as well when I thought, I don't know, I just don't wanna keep pretending. Which is an odd thing, right? Because it was such a violent thing to have happened that you would almost think it would scare people in.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. Because I had a, I had a friend that asked me, cuz you know, it was a couple days later when all the news reports were coming out and they had found his body and everything. And one of my friends asked me and she said, you know, are you sure you want to do this? Are [00:08:00] you sure that you don't want to just pretend?

And, you know, in a strange way, I think that because of the violence and just the horror of that, it, it actually. There was actually, it actually gave me some resolve to keep coming out. Right? Like it was a, i I, I can't go back in the closet because, because people are being killed for being gay. Like, I have to be out and I have to, I have to live this life cuz that's the only way it's gonna be better for, for me and for other people.

Right? Like, there, there was that piece of it that just, I think, you know, for, for all of the horribleness of that crime, you know, that might have been one of the, one of the good things that, you know, we were able, or I was able to take from that. Mm-hmm. , that really was a catalyzing 

Shawn: moment. I think. I also grew up in Wisconsin, very conservative town, although, to be completely honest with you, and we can, we can circle back on this later, but I do feel like in conservatism now as it relates to the queer community is just very different to what I was experiencing at the time, which was kind of like, you do you, but keep it [00:09:00] quiet.

Mm-hmm. and. There was something with Matthew Shepherd where I thought, like, I didn't know anything about Wyoming, but everything that I was hearing in the news and like how he died and where he died, you know, in the middle of like some, I don't know, ranch town, you know, mountain Village, whatever, and just feeling like if that kid could do it, then like, what am I so afraid of?

Justin: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I totally understand that, Shawn. And I think that was a thing it was such a catalyzing moment for, I know for me, but also for other folks that I knew at the university I was at that, you know, either had already come out or that were in that process of, you know, both, both the fear that that was there, right.

Because, because coming out is a very fearful process. And it's also in a lot of ways very joyful. But there was also the sense of like, we have to stick together. So, and especially, you know, I went to a smaller university and, you know, a medium sized town in Wisconsin and, and. You know, there weren't [00:10:00] a lot of queer people there, but I think that event kind of helped us, you know, realize like, hey, we do have to look out for each other and, and you know, so, so again, it's so tragic and horrible and yet, you know, there was some, some good that came out of that horrible event, I think.

Yeah, I agree. 

Shawn: Soto, 

Justin: what's your story? 

Soda: Well, thank you for sharing Justin and Shawn. I was trying to remember back to, because I remember obviously the news or surrounding this, I remember like my, like gut reaction to that, which, you know, my schooling was very different because my dad worked at the university at the time and so a lot of eyes were on me and.

It did kind of create this tug of war within me of like wanting to be like free and kind of wild and you know, I'm experimenting and kind of out there, but then also at the same time being or attempting to be some kind of like perfect Southern Baptist sun. And also like [00:11:00] in, in DC at that time too, like it was so strange to be, you know, on a Catholic Jesuit campus, but then maybe 10 minutes away it's DuPont Circle where everything was alive.

Mm-hmm. . And that was like some of the first time that I saw like men together. Mm-hmm. and. You know, for me, you know, I go to college, I'm experimenting, I'm having sex with men and women. I'm just doing all of these things and you know, I'm just so wild and free. Like I'm some kind of strange inventive hippie on in my mind, right?

That's the lie that I was telling myself. And you know, then of course it's like, okay, well that was college and let me just go ahead and go into the Marine Corps . And so, you know, and then it's during don't ask, don't tell. And there's that experience. And that was just basically like, I mean a pressure cooker for me cuz of being under the scrutiny, trying to prove my manhood and all of these things.

And you know, when I came out to, you know, obviously to my parents after I exited the Marine Corps honorable discharge, I did [00:12:00] not to get discharged because of my sexuality. But I think that I remember too is that the parental conversation was so horrible and it never stopped. Like obviously that's the reason why we don't have a, one of the many reasons we don't have a relationship.

There are other topics, but there were all these pockets. Like I had to tell my marine friend group, I had to tell my like university friend group. I had to tell the people at. and all of them had such varied reactions, like my university counterparts, like I was expecting a lot of support in spaces that I did not receive.

It kind of became like a joke. And it's also like kind of this rich white mentality too of some of the people that have trust funds of like not understanding what I was going through from my socioeconomic background. And then my work friends were probably the, cuz they didn't really know me, were the most supportive just because they understood the struggles from transitioning out of the Marine Corps.

And then now coming out, it was both very traumatic. [00:13:00] And then of course like the Marines, all the Marines were like, I'm fucking pissed at you. Like, why couldn't you have told us this? Exactly. Like while you were in, because. We could go to all those clubs with you and all those clubs have straight, single women

Mm-hmm. . And I was like, what, what? Like, what is this? Like they were just, they, they could care less. Like I was so shocked that like my marine friend group was the most supportive out of all of these individuals. Yeah. I mean, I think that it really set up my life overall and, you know, kind of through my twenties and thirties and now forties, just kind of thinking back of like what that time was like.

I really wish I had done things differently and not given a fuck . Mm-hmm. um, In the name of like, obviously like you both shared this, like Matthew Shepherd and thinking about all of the people that sacrifice themselves. I wish I had cared a little bit less, but you know, I think you live in learn. Mm. I'm 

Shawn: remembering back on the interview that we did for, for your music, you said, [00:14:00] you know, and so I did what all you know, gay boys from small towns do at the time I joined the military.

And I actually had a visceral reaction to that cause I was like that is the last thing I would've done. I would've actively avoided joining the military. And this was around the same time. And I'm wondering, Justin, was that something you considered was joining the military? 

Justin: Oh yeah. You did? Yeah. Oh, totally.

Yeah. I mean, I, I know I would not have been able to be a Marine because my dad was a Marine and, and I remember at some point in time when growing up and he said, You know, something to the effect of, if you're gonna be in the military, that's fine, but you're not gonna be a Marine. And I never, I, you know, later I understood more of what that meant because of his experience and, and Vietnam and everything.

But yeah, no, I, I remember in, in high school thinking about it, you know, going into the Navy or the Air Force or something like that. And part of it I think was the escape, right? It felt like that was a way to get out of [00:15:00] my town and out of Wisconsin and out of this life. That while, you know, for everybody looking in, I had, you know, I had a perfect childhood and you know, my parents are still together, right?

Like I have, you know, an older sister, like everything like was picture perfect. I was just battling this large secret. And so I think for me, the thought of the military was that, was, was that escape piece and, and. And also the, you know, I mean, I, I work for the government now, so it was, you know, I'm in public service, so there was a public service aspect and the of that as well.

But then for me it was the don't ask, don't tell. Because that was, you know, that was right about the time I was, you know, when Clinton was there and I was in high school and starting to think about it, that there was a part of me that was like, oh, I don't, I'm not gonna be able to do this. Like, even at that stage I knew that I was queer and I knew that I wouldn't be able to keep that secret for [00:16:00] a long time.

And so that's, I think part of what kept me from, you know, pursuing that more, I guess I 

Shawn: just assumed this was that the way that I thought about this was probably universal. That to me the military was a threat. So towards the end of high school I was talking about like, what are your future plans, right?

Going to university, going into a trade going into the military. , et cetera. And all of the people that were lining up for military, I was like, not my people. Mm-hmm. , right? Like, these are people that, and not, not just not my people. They scared the shit outta me. Yeah. I saw them as like an existential threat to me.

So the idea of joining the military was just off the table from the beginning. 

Soda: That is really inter, and I love what Justin just said because that is, it was that, you know, I was a first generation college student, made it out. And for me, the university, like, you know, I'm around all these people with trust funds, with actual real money and you know, just living their dreams, going to Europe, doing all these things that I had dreamed of, and it start, you start to [00:17:00] infiltrate your mind that it's possible for you.

You know, like to live that life, go to New York and do all these great things. I thought I was gonna work in advertising and I mean, I almost got like this job at Ralph Lauren and then it didn't pan out and then I was panicked because, I then I was stuck at home. Mm-hmm. and just like what Justin just said, like, yeah.

I was like, I need to get the hell out of here, or I'm gonna die. Like I'm not gonna be able to stay here. Because it was under my parents' roof, it was back in town. And basically like my dad was like, you should get a job at Pepco and stay here and have like, I can't do this. Like I can't do it. And so I caught a recruiter up, I did it and it was under, you know, like I was paying, playing a very dangerous game.

Like don't ask, don't tell my time. In the Marine Corps, I loved the experience, but you know, I was exploring my sexuality, like going out, doing all the things, but then also like getting up the next day at four 30 in the morning to PT and do all the stuff. But for me it was like a way out. [00:18:00] I will always say that the Marine Corps saved my life and I think that it specifically, it saved my queer life.

I know you've talked 

Shawn: about this soda previously, but I still want to hear it, but let's start Justin with you. How did you tell your family and how did they respond? 

Justin: Well, so I told my sister first. So my sister is eight years older than I am. I was home. So I, I came out in October to my friends in college.

And then the next summer I was home. And this was, this would've been between my sophomore and junior year of college. And I was home, and I had called my sister because I was going to tell my parents on Independence Day, , I wanted to tell her first just this story, like, hello Queer, right? Because I was listening to Martina McBride.

Oh 

Soda: my God, please play it in the background, Shawn, on,

Shawn: I can't licensing, but Martina, if you're listening, you 

Justin: know, over and over and over. And I was psyching myself up and I called her and 

Shawn: Wait, Martina or [00:19:00] your sister? . 

Justin: I, I, oh my God. If I was calling Martina, that would've been a, I I would not be sitting here on the phone with you all.

No. I called my sister and I said, you know, I have something to tell you. And. I don't exactly remember the words I used with her, but you know how I said it. But I, I said, you know, I told her I was gay and she, she started to cry and she said, I love you. And then I lost it. Like, at that point I, I just lost my mind.

Right. Because that was not, you know, she, she was, she was very supportive. She was very, very worried for me. She was very worried about how my parents would react and, you know, was I prepared, you know, she, she asked me questions about like, was I prepared to be able to, you know, go back to school and how was I gonna support myself on the, you know, the job I had and, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

You know, she was like, what happens if mom and dad aren't supportive? And so I got actually mad at her because I was like, Wait a second. Today is July 3rd. I'm telling you, you're telling [00:20:00] me all of these things. Tomorrow's July 4th. I have to tell mom and dad on Independence Day cuz that's the plan. And Martinez sing a song about it.

you know, like, come on, . But I actually then I didn't tell them I waited. Hmm. And I was actually back at college a few weeks later that summer and I went on a date with this guy and, you know, this was like, cuz in high school I didn't date. Like I, I went out, you know, but it wasn't, it was fake. Right. It was the show that you put on.

Right. The first couple dates I ever went on, like every single one, I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be the person I married. Right. I was going through like the teenage, you know, 12 year old experience, but I was in my twenties so I went on this date with this guy and it was horrible. And all I could think about was like, I really wanna call my mom and tell her I was on a bad date.

And so the next morning I got up and I drove back to my parents' house, which was about three hours away. Showed up unannounced. My dad had already gone to work, my mom was home, so I just hung out with her [00:21:00] and we gardened and we did other stuff. And the whole time she's like, why are you here? So my dad got home and he came home early, which I, it took me a while to actually realize he like came home at like three or four o'clock in the afternoon, which was early for him.

And so my mom obviously had like called him or something and he came home and they were all gonna like, well, let's go to dinner. And I was like, I have something to tell you. And so I sat down, I got at sitting down at the dining room table and I pulled out my notepad where I had written everything I needed to say down

Soda: So organized. Cause I was like, 

Justin: yeah. And so, you know, I, I just basically, you know, went through this like speech and. Probably about, you know, two minutes of who the hell knows what I was saying until I finally got to the word gay and I stopped and I just kept looking at it. And, you know, to Shawn, what you said, like telling my friends was one thing, but like, this was the, this was real.

Mm-hmm. , like, if I, if I [00:22:00] say this to them, like, everything changes. I can always find new friends, but I can't, you know, like, this is, this is, you know, and so I said, you know, I'm gay. And I started to cry and my dad was crying and my mom just was sitting there with this, quite frankly, bitch look on her face looking at me.

Hmm. And I got done and I, I said something like, if I need to leave I will call you in three days. Because I was really worried, like if they started yelling or something, like, then I would, I, I was like, I need to be able to leave, but I also wanna make sure that like I can connect with them. Right. Like, there was all that.

And my dad just, he's like, Justin, why would you need to leave? . And I'm like, well, I don't know how. And he's like, we love you. You're our son. This is shocking. I didn't expect this, but I love you. And my mom is sitting there with this little smirk on her face and she said, I love you. And she's like, and I've known.

And I'm like, what [00:23:00] do you mean you knew? She's like, I caught you trying on your sister's prom dress when you were 10 years. , and I'm like, well, why didn't you say something? She's like, you needed to figure this out for yourself. And so it was like, I mean, in some ways it was the perfect kind of, for me, with my family, the perfect kind of, you know, I told them we didn't talk about it for another like two years, basically.

Like I never went on a bad date and then called my mother, right? Because it was like, you know, then it was the awkwardness of, oh, now I'm talking to my parents about my love life. Like, I don't want to do that. But 

Shawn: I mean, like, just being gay wasn't just woven into just your life with 

Justin: them. It was, but we just, we didn't talk about it, but we also didn't talk about, like, I realize with my sister, like until she was like in a very serious relationship with the person who became her husband, she never talked about her boyfriends.

Mm-hmm. . Like, we just have that kind of, I guess waspy type of, we just don't talk about. But I mean like, you know, 

Shawn: around the dinner table, like, Hey, so are you dating? No, no, no. 

Justin: Okay. No, we do now. It's fascinating cuz [00:24:00] that that is one of the things I think that has been, so, I moved from Washington DC two years ago to Tacoma, Washington.

And during that time when I left DC I had, I spent eight weeks at my parents' house in Wisconsin and three of them were with my, my parents there. And we, we had not spent that much time together, probably since I was in high school or maybe the, that first year after college. And I was really worried about it cuz I was like, gosh, are we gonna fight?

Like, you know, I'm in their house again. Like, what's going on? And it was, it was one of the best things that has happened in my life was getting to spend that time with them. And partly because like we started seeing each other as individual adults, right? Like as, oh, they're not, they are my parents and they're these individuals with these personalities and these.

you know, everything. And they, they were, I think, saw the same in me and the experience I had been going through and why I was leaving DC and moving and all that. And so it took a while [00:25:00] for us to, you know, kind of weave all of that together. And though I also never, after I came out, I never had to, I never felt I had to hide anything from them.

I think it was me, it was more on me. Mm-hmm. , I didn't tell them and they were respecting me. You know, their kind of philosophy as well. If he's gonna tell us something, he's gonna tell us something. And if not, it's his life. And, you know, we support him. And so now I will say this, I never, unfortunately, my grandfather died and my grandfather was a big influence of my, on my life.

And he died before I was able to tell him. And I never actually said the words to my grandmother, but it was a couple years after I came out where the birthday cards. Definitely took a turn . Cause all of a sudden they were like, the birthday cards that are like the half naked men, . Oh, come on. Seriously.

And I'm like, I told my mom, I'm like, did you tell grandma? And she's like, no. She's like, that's your, you know, that's your thing to tell. It's, you know, you when [00:26:00] you're comfortable. I'm like, grandma's sending me birthday cards of half naked men. My mom's like, well maybe grandma found you in one of her dresses.

And I'm like, God damn it mom, your mom . So . That was my family. So 

Shawn: soda, your story's very different. 

Soda: just a little bit. And also I just wanna like say something on the record is that, Justin, like, you deserve to be in dresses. Like, I mean, it's always a look. You bring it. Like, so I'm glad that, I mean, it's, I mean, I have more of like a hobbit body, but like, Justin's like tall and slender and very handsome.

Like, so I, I don't see what the problem is. Yeah. So my experience was different. A I wasn't as organized as Justin. I did not, you know, pick the 4th of July. , let's say most people were not as organized as Justin . Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did not have a notebook, like when I, you know, I was living in DC I had my like, sort of first boyfriend, which, you know, ugh, like really bad taste in men.

And. [00:27:00] Thought that this was after, you know, I transitioned out of the Marine Corps, like the law couldn't come after me, and so I decided to drive home. My guys was like, well, I'm driving home from DC to Southern Maryland. I just need to pick up my mail. Like, and so that's like, my mom was like, why are you I l or m a l e?

Yeah. . Wow. I mean, you know, like I will say St. Mary's County has some like good looking. You just have to really dig deep. But I think that, you know, I came home, you know, which was not out of the norm for me to do, but like she, I could tell like that she was questioning it. I said, oh, I didn't need to pick up the mail and I need to tell you something.

And I just remember she just sat there, kind of staring at me and, you know, I was like, well, I feel really good. You know, like, cause obviously you're, it's all built up and it's, I had taken off like three hours of work, right? Like, ju just like Justin, it's like a plan. It's like, well, I have to do it on this Wednesday because I've already [00:28:00] said that I'm going to do it.

Mm-hmm. , so I have to do it. And so, you know, I just remember her like staring, you, staring at me and she's like, okay, well please don't, don't tell your father. And you know, it was this whole thing. And I left. I, I remember like driving back to DC and I felt that went pretty. Like, you know, like in my mind, like, you know, it's kinda like, okay, like, not great, not great, but like not as bad.

And by the time that I got home, , like, I just knew, like, I mean, the phone messages started coming to my place of work. My mom was screaming at me and it was like, for months, geez. Leaving voicemails calling me a motherfucker, which was really just wrong, wrong for a variety of reasons. It was just very aggressive and also like manipulative and like crying and sobbing the whole thing.

And then obviously, like I already shared the story about how, you know, essentially the CIA like outed me to my father , so mm-hmm. Because of my Jr's bar tab dam, it, Justin Jr's 

Justin: is always, oh my God. Well that's, yeah. Well [00:29:00] we have to talk about your judgment in general 

Soda: there. Exactly. Listen, I, I'm a moth to the flame for $8, you know, power hour, but , you know, like, and then like my dad and mom were, have very specific questions of like, but do you know.

Bet you're, have you experimented with this? And I was like, are you asking like, did I get to second base? Like, do you know what I mean? Like what, what do you mean? Like, do you mean like butt stuff or like, what do you mean? Like, you know, like, like a waterfall of dicks in my mouth. Like I'm not quite sure what you're, what you're looking for.

And I just had to say, and yes, yes. To all of them. , yes. To all of it. A through F. Yes. Like, yes, I've done it all. And my, I just remember like how. We just went back and forth. They were like, please don't tell anyone. Please don't tell anyone. And I, you know, I felt like shame because they were so torn up.

And my mom would call me and saying that like the shotgun, like that, they kept in like his closet. Like they laid there at night [00:30:00] holding each other and crying and saying that they're going to like blow their heads off because their son is gay. And it just like all of this stuff. And I would love to say that like, you know, it lasted for, you know, like four or five months and then it stopped.

No, it just kept going. It just kept going and going and going until we just. Didn't talk anymore. I started like losing my hair like during that time just cuz of fucking genetics. And I, you know, shaved my head like in the Marine Corps and I just kept it like Justin never knew me with hair. Like, so like, you know, the thing is, is that I'm a beautiful bald man.

And of course I come home to southern Maryland like, and it's my mom's birthday, so it's like we all go to the Olive Garden, which is the fanciest thing in town. And you know, I didn't really understand the, what Olive Garden actually was, but you know, until I like went to an actual real Italian restaurant.

You know, it was so funny because she, I pulled me aside of the parking lot cuz I wore like a V-neck like sweater, but without like an undershirt. Like just, [00:31:00] I don't know, I don't think it looked that risque. . And she goes, is this a gay thing,

I was like, what do you mean? And she was just like, I, she was like that you're not wearing a shirt. And she was like, also your hair. And I'm like, mom, I'm going bald. And she was like, is that because you're gay? I was like, I was like, no. All these always so weird. She would have these moments where, and he did too, of like, well, I know what you're doing in DC and I'm like, what?

She was like with your martinis in the clubs. And I was like, I, I think you're mis, I mean, sure, maybe, but like, this is not sex in the city. Like, what are you, like, what are, what are you visualizing that that's not my life? I mean, maybe it was sometimes, but like, not really in the way that they thought that it was.

But yeah, I, I am bald because of all the waterfall of dicks. That's what happened. . I had a 

Justin: dime for every, for every time you had a waterfall of dicks. Yeah. Yeah. . 

Soda: And this is where Shawn never invites me [00:32:00] back ever again. . 

Justin: I literally am in my mind, envisioning an actual waterfall that is, 

Soda: Dicks. Yeah. And just to say too is like that's, I meant waterfall dicks.

Okay. If you watch for housewives of Orange County, it was like, just like the stack of vaginas. But that's another time . 

Justin: I don't even know how to bring this back. Well, you know, so it's funny, like obviously that's, it's horrible that your parents had that reaction and, and you know, I think there's a, there's a lot of people that, that's how their families react in, you know, in a non-supportive way, which is, you know, un really unfortunate because it just, there's so much of, you know, just life that can be better if we just treated each other a little bit nicer.

Right. But I will say this with, with my family. I, as you were talking, I was just thinking about it. . I remember, you know, my, my parents, they said it was my, you know, my story to tell [00:33:00] my, my, you know, news to share. And, you know, they also did tell some of their friends, like, they're very good friends. Hmm. And at first when, because somebody came up to me at a wedding and said, oh, how are you doing?

I'm like, oh, I'm fine. And they're like, oh, any news? And I'm like, no, everything's good. And they're like, oh, your dad said you were gay. And I'm like, what? ? 

Shawn: It's a little brute 

Justin: force, but Okay. . Yeah. But it was, it was funny because like at the time I was like, oh, why are they telling people? And then now I look back on it and it is kind of the, there were signals that I don't think I knew at the time that they were supportive.

Right. That they were, you know, in my corner cheering me on. It just was the very northern Midwest, like, you know, silent way of doing it. , which I wish everybody had more of that experience because it, you know, just having the, this family support. Cause I think that was, you know, that probably in the end coming out and then actually having support around me was [00:34:00] probably what helped, you know, get me through my mental health issues that I was undergoing and, and, you know, probably is what saved my life, you know, like with soda it was the Marine Corps.

For me, it was, I think having that support network that I didn't even really know was there at the time. I was probably too, it just was too naive or too not, you know, too wrapped up in my own crap to actually see what, see it happening. But, but as I look back, I, it definitely was there. You know, this makes me 

Shawn: think of something else.

I am increasingly grateful for my upbringing in a way that I wasn't when I didn't live on the coast. And that's because, so like when I moved to Milwaukee, which I'm sure to, you know, anyone in, you know, like New York, Chicago, la, Miami is a backwater, but it was a big city to me. Mm-hmm. . So when I moved to Milwaukee and then you know, started spending much more time in like Chicago, I would hang around with like queer folks and think, you know, like I was, I, you know, I finally arrived.

I'm with my people, but you know, [00:35:00] they were constantly calling me out, like I wasn't using the right language or, you know, I didn't know how to talk about being gay or, you know, was queer the appropriate word to use or not. . I think a lot of that has to do with, I just grew up in a place where nobody knew the language.

Mm-hmm. , nobody knew how to, you know, navigate these types of relationships. Right. And I think now in our hyperpolarized society, I actually am really grateful for that because I have a lot more grace for people that come from conserv socially conservative areas because there's a, there's a difference between being hateful and not 

Justin: knowing something.

Yeah. 

Shawn: And I think we often castigate people for not knowing something as being hateful when they're really just doing their best and they just don't know. 

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree with you. I mean, I think, you know, I even think about it, I mean, some of the stuff that I, you know, even a, you know, a decade ago would say, You know, in relation to like the [00:36:00] transgender community, right?

Like some of the wording I would use at that time was, was born out, out of ignorance and, and because especially the, you know, I think cis, white, male gay society is, we're just, were bred to just be assholes in some ways. I, I like that idea of it. There's the hatefulness that is out there, right? There's the people that are, you know, willfully ignorant to, you know, say things and then when they're told that they, you know, what, what it means to somebody or the impact it has, they don't care.

Like those people I think in some ways are beyond what I would will deal with because I am right. I'm still learning at this age, right? Like I'm almost 44 and there's still stuff that I'm learning about being in the queer community. I think you're, you're, you made a really good point that if, if you're hateful because of, you know, you're just hateful or you have a willful ignorance, like that's really hard.

But if it's, you just didn't know, you didn't know, you didn't grow up with people that you [00:37:00] know were queer, you didn't grow up with people from different races. And so like, you're learning that, and if you're willing to learn that, you know, those are the people I think that I, I wanna actually engage with because you can have a conversation, you'll learn something from it, they'll learn something and, you know, I would learn something from it as well.

So I agree with that. So 

Shawn: this is a, a good segue, and I think you even mentioned this a little bit. So the gay male community, especially the white gay male community, can be particularly harsh. We eat our own. And I guess I'm wondering how that's informed, how you kind of interact with the community, how you fit into the community, how you feel about yourself, or how you've kind of approached your own development as a queer person.

Oh 

Soda: my gosh. Could I have like a five minute, like drink break before I get ? Justin and I have been part of very specific communities, like that's how we know each other in dc in DC and I think that looking back, like I didn't really have, I mean, apart from the folks that [00:38:00] I'm talking to right now, I don't have a lot of like male, like gay friends, like in, in my life.

And I think that for me there's like different pockets, right? Like I think, you know, like in my twenties, you know, S sweat shame for hooking up too much or whatever it might be. You know, as people do like in their twenties, like by male members of the gay community. Like, and then in my thirties, you know, like kind of in this community that Justin and I were part of looking back, like we were part of a football league and I don't, maybe Justin disagreed, like I look back at that time and obviously that's how I met Justin.

That's how I met my husband. And there are a lot of other people that were wonderful. Looking back though, like it was just so ruthless and you know, in my twenties, like I was. Not pretty enough, too short, like, you know, like too fat, whatever. And then in my thirties, too old, too [00:39:00] short, right? Like not athletic enough.

Like it was just, you just could never win. And I felt like it was so universal that that, I mean that's, that's why he was drawn to be friends with Justin in the first place because he was just more accepting. Right? And a little bit more like open-hearted. And I feel like I've never quite found my place in the queer community in the way that I would like to.

Like I found it more vicious. And maybe it's because of my own approach, like, but it also in turn, like made me mean, like I was, had also been mean to people in different pockets because of what I was taught or what, you know, it was like survival of the fittest and looking and kind of talking to younger.

Queer people. Like they're different, maybe similar, but also very different experiences too, where there's just a little bit more understanding or willingness to be wrong and self-correct and a little bit more body positivity. You know, I've, you know, I love my body. Like there's nothing wrong with [00:40:00] it. It is what it is and I'm proud of it.

But like, I was just taught to like always want to, you know, especially by gay men, like to find ways like, you know, to seek something else, right? Like it was just always like somebody was more gorgeous or somebody was hotter or somebody was better. I just could never win. And then I should on the people that are maybe like outside of me, right?

That could have been great friends. Like it just a never ending cycle. I 

Justin: totally, totally get that. And, and you know, first off, I mean, I, you know, thank you for seeing that I have an open heart. That's, that's very nice of you. Because I don't feel that, I feel like I am . I feel like I'm an asshole. No, but I feel like, you know, I, I, I, so what, you know, you said, so I, I think that I'm suspicious of any gay man mm-hmm.

Yeah. Because that's, that's how I felt like same thing, right. In their twenties, you're, you're experimenting of like going out on dates or hooking up [00:41:00] or you know, your first relationships or whatever. And, you know, it's really, I think it's hard to kind of figure out how to find friends, mm-hmm. , that, that don't start off as sexual friends.

Right. and or in some way evolve into it or some way evolve into it. Yeah. Yeah. And so I don't have, I, I, same thing. I don't have a, well, up until I moved to Tacoma, I didn't have a lot of gay male friends. I have maybe a handful that are people that I actually trust and. You know, when is that true? 

Shawn: Cuz it does feel to me, Justin, like wherever you go, wherever you land, you just happen to like blend into the queer community.

Justin: Which is so funny cuz I never feel like I do I f I like, it actually gives me anxiety to think really about like really it's one of the things I 

Shawn: really like. I noticed about you in Milwaukee. One of the things I was actually attracted you as a person that I'd like really looked up to is I was like, here's this guy in no offense, but I was like, here's this guy that comes from like bum fuck Wisconsin.

Soda: He's 

Shawn: like so [00:42:00] comfortable in his own skin and he's just like, he's, you know, he does himself and he's just like super cool with that. And like anyone that has a problem with it, go fuck him. You know, like, and I don't mean that literally, you know, I was just like, I was super impressed. So to hear that you.

You have anxiety about that is I, it's not surprising, but it's surprising. Yeah. 

Justin: No, that's so funny to hear, Shawn, because, I mean, because honestly, like Soto with you, like, I mean, part of the reason we became, you know, first I think became friends was one we're we our two people that get places early.

And so we were at the practice, you know, before everybody else. And two, because, you know, we both like get crazy competitive and would scream, you know, things on the sidelines to our teammates because, you know, I have no athletic ability, but I can yell really loud. And so I thought, you know, with you, so I thought you were, you know, kind of the same thing of just being able to acclimate to everything and, and same and same with you, Shawn.

And so it's funny that we all have. [00:43:00] Kind of experience, but also inside we're having that, you know, that other tumult or whatever. But I do think, you know, one, so you said one thing about the, the body positivity or the, you know, being that is the one thing I've loved about getting older is like, I don't, don't give a shit.

If I have abs I don't need them. And for people that work out and that's what they want, that's great, but that's not me. And, and like, to be comfortable like that, I just think is, is one of the things that I've really enjoyed about, like, being out of my twenties and thirties is like, well, I'm in my forties.

I'm supposed to have a dad bod now. Right? Like, so here it is 

Shawn: soda. Do 

Soda: you agree with that? I, I do. I mean, I think that for me, I don't, and I do work out like I run, I. Lift weights. I do all the things, but I do it for me. Mm-hmm. , and I do it to be stronger and because I actually enjoy it. I'm not going to some fancy ass gym, like wearing like ridiculous tank tops and like winking at [00:44:00] people or whatever happened.

I just think that I am just in a space, and I would agree with Justin too. Like I think that where it doesn't really matter as much and like really, like, while I, I love being around young people. I, I think it's great and like learning from them and hearing that, but like, goodness gracious, I'm so glad that I'm not in my twenties anymore.

Like I really do. I love my forties. I think it's been, it's been the best experience. I think there's more acceptance. internally for me. And, and also knowledge about who I am and why I am in ways that there haven't been. But yeah, I think that it's, it's just kind of funny, like as that I remember like in the, in, when we were in the league, right?

And we, you know, we liked to drink. It was very fun. And I think that we had a very good core group there. But I just remember one of them, you know, and you know who I'm talking about, like taking me to the side and just telling me you're a bit much. And I was like, get in line buddy. I've always been a [00:45:00] bit much , like, it's not about here, like this is just who I am, but it just, it's, you know, if you don't conform into certain ways, like people have a hard time accepting it.

And I also think that by not conforming. As, as well into their ideals. I think it pushes, it makes them uncomfortable. Cuz then if it's like Justin, like you and I too, I think we made other people uncomfortable by doing things that were a little like ridiculous and kind of making fun of football. Yeah. We didn't take it seriously.

I mean, I took my face painting and my costume seriously, but like, I didn't really, and the drinking seriously and the chicken tenders at Nelly seriously. Shameless plug. But I think that the rest of it, like, I think we did make people uncomfortable a little bit with that, you know, of kind of like owning our stuff and being louder.

I think there's, there's something to be said about that. You know what 

Shawn: I've always kind of struggled with, there has been, and there continues to be, you know, there's a hegemony in the queer community, you know, to be white, you know, to be a white man in the gay [00:46:00] community is, you know, the top of hegemonically.

It's, you know, top of society. But, you know, you've often heard not interested in feminine men, or not interested in heavier men, et cetera. And I've struggled with this because there is a difference between saying, you know, I'm not interested in feminine men, and that is different than being misogynistic.

Mm-hmm. . And I often feel like what's actually happening is this is masking like misogyny and it is masking racism. 

Justin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, Shawn, from my experience, I think that, I think you're right. I think sometimes that that is masking something else. And especially when you can be on, you know, things like, you know, grinder or, you know, back in, you know, my twenties manhunt.

And you could, you gotta, right. You know, you, you were on the, these platforms where you could just say things like, you know, not into whatever you weren't into. And people were okay with that, right? Like, [00:47:00] oh, I'm okay if this person only wants people that are, you know, six foot and 175 pounds. Like, oh, that's okay, right?

Like, there was just a, it was almost like, like the shopping aspect of it. Like, oh, I'm out shopping for my perfect shirt. And at the same time, you know, what I find funny is like, I do know people. I have acquaintances who, you know, are, are v work out all the time and are very into, you know, what they look like and, and.

I'm very happy for them because that makes them happy, right? Like, I've gotten to the point now where I'm like, if that's what makes them happy, that's great, and here's what makes me happy. So if we're gonna be in our, if we're gonna be in a friendship or, you know, you have to accept that I, you know, that I'm, I'm gonna be this way.

I'm gonna accept that you're gonna be that way. Right? Like, like I think in my twenties, thirties, it was much more, oh, I have to conform. I either have to conform to something that I'm not, or, you know, so to your point, I have to be a little bit extra because that's how [00:48:00] you get the attention. That's how you get the space to just be.

So, yeah, I do think that there's a piece of it though, that is, is masking something. And you know, quite frankly, like, I'll be real clear. Like I wear CF tans some, we call them moomoos, like in warm weather at my house out on the deck, right? Like, like having a glass of wine and a CFT tan, like. That's fucking fabulous.

Like, I don't think that makes me any less of a man and it's actually makes me happy. So like, let's, like we can just let people do that stuff. I don't know. So that 

Shawn: all being said, and, and true. We also all agree that the queer community has been supportive and affirming for each of us too. So soda, how have you 

Soda: experienced that in like positivity or calf tans,

if you could touch on both of those . Sure. Calf tans, I've, I don't, I just don't think that I have the shape for them. I also am just shorter than Justin, so I just feel like it would look [00:49:00] like a, like, just a longer like gown, which I don't know if is with some of the patterns that I've seen of the calf tans.

I don't know if it'll 

Justin: quite work for me. It, soda. Soda, it will work. I'm going to send you some to try. You ha now around your pool. It is perfect place for calf tans. 

Soda: So, I mean, that sounds really nice. In terms of, I would say like positivity, like it sounds very doom and glob like, and then all these men hated my body, like, you know, like hundreds of them in DC , you know, for me actually like to call it out a little bit too.

I feel that I found more positivity from black gay men, transgender, like lesbians. and not white gay men, right? Mm-hmm. like, so I do feel like that there was this very specific areas where I felt really warm, welcoming, and acceptance from these, from these specific areas. And I remember having this very strong lesbian friend [00:50:00] group that really took me under their wings.

Like I was trying to think back of like, I don't even remember like how I met this group, but they were, when I was in my twenties, they were mostly in their forties and had houses and lives. And it was just, I really looked up to them and they really instilled in me that, that I was capable of anything, you know, and like honestly did not take shit from like other men that I was seeing.

And like they kept questioning my choices, of dates. But I think that clearly I didn't learn for a very long time. Yeah. I mean, I think there is a lot of positivity there. And I would agree with what both of you has said, have said too, is that, . You know, I love the fact that I'm in a space where I can continue to learn about the queer community, continue to be open to being wrong and self-correcting and learning and evolving as it continues to grow.

That is actually kind of beautiful. 

Justin: Soda. I think you're right. I think I found, I will say this, I [00:51:00] do think that the queer community is very supportive when, if we are attacked from the outside. Mm-hmm. some of these people that you know, probably. Would be people that I may not have hung out with or felt comfortable around before, you know, if, if something was happening, they, I know they would be there.

Right. To protect the community from the outside. I think you're right. Sort of as far as the, you know, finding from, you know, people of color transgender gender, individuals, you know, lesbians. That was, that was and, and continues to be. Some of the support group that I have that, you know, I don't, I actually don't think it's the gay part of white male gays,

I think it's the white part that just, I agree. Yeah, and that's the piece that I have. I think now where I am, you know, I really look at it and think, okay, I, I do sit in a place of privilege. I have to use that for good. I have to be supportive of the community that I'm in [00:52:00] and. , and I don't mean that just a queer community, but the community I live in and the, the people that are around and, you know, bring that privilege to help other folks that don't have it.

And, and I think I, what was funny is I found, I found that support though, from people that didn't even have the privilege I had. Right? Like, it was the people that, like you were saying, soda, that that just really did help get through, get me through some of the more darker times in my life. 

Soda: And isn't it funny like, Justin now, right?

Like, I didn't think about this then, you know, in my own like white privilege ignorance. Like, but now I'm thinking how did they even have space? Yes. A they, they were surviving. How did they even have space for even regardless, like, just like the way that I was raised, like under understanding the world.

How did they had space for me? Like, and I think that that is, that is something just remarkable that I'm extremely grateful for now. But gosh, I was such a privileged asshole. Like, why was [00:53:00] I like, you know what I mean? Like seeking refuge with, you know, these subparts of the queer community that needed my support.

Right? I mean, how selfish, like, it just, it boggles my mind a little bit now. I mean, I'm grateful to them, but it's also at the same time, like being a little bit more aware and working on it every day. Like, gosh, like, I wish I had a clue back then. 

Justin: Yeah. How about you, Shawn? How, what is, what has your experience been with the positive support from the queer community?

So, if 

Shawn: I'm completely honest, like I have always been afraid of the queer community. . And I think if, yeah, if I'm honest, I still am. Mm-hmm. , I have always avoided gay clubs. I've avoided groups of gay men specifically. And you know, part of that is I think just my personality, but part of it is I had experiences very early on, you know, coming [00:54:00] out, you know, I did.

The only thing I knew, which was like, let's go up to Green Bay, Justin, you know, green Bay mm-hmm. , you know, go to the, the, the gay clubs. And, and I remember like being so excited that I was finally out and I had a friend, we snuck up to the clubs in Green Bay, and so I was so excited to be around my people and within minutes was like, oh, these are not my people.

Interesting. Just feeling very much like, I don't fit into this. I don't have, you know, the perfect body. I don't have the perfect personality. You know, I, I was also, I grew up very poor, which I don't think I looked poor, but I thought I looked poor, you know? Mm-hmm. . And so I carried that with me, just this inferiority.

So where I found supportive community for me though, is I've always been an academic. So I got involved on the activist side. Mm-hmm. , and that's where I found community, where it was much less about my dating life, to be honest. Or it was much less about, you know, how I looked. [00:55:00] and kind of built a community for myself that way.

It's created a great space for me. You know, like I was able to go into like queer studies and I was able to, you know, get into queer research and queer history and queer politics which has really affirmed me and which has really given me a lot of agency. I think over, you know, how I see myself in the queer community in a way that I couldn't find otherwise.

Justin: That's Shawn. That's really, I mean, this, this has been a fascinating con because I, I've known both of you now for over a decade, but, but I didn't like, this conversation has been fascinating cuz I didn't know some of this about either of you and from my perspective, right, Shawn? Like I, when I first met you and we were hanging out and then, you know, over the course of our friendship, like, I, I have always been so impressed by the community that you have because it is the academic activist like, Folks that are out there, like not, you know, just going to the bar, but like, I mean, [00:56:00] you know, yes, you go to the bar or you go out and drink or whatever, but it's like you had all of this other like, stuff that I was like, oh, how do I do that?

Like, I, I wanna have that community, right? Or, you know, soda with you. And like, I, I just still think about like, you were, you are extra. And I love it because like, you'd walk into a room and it's like, it's a party then, right? Like, it's like we're gonna have fun and it's not gonna be boring. And like, and to hear both of you kind of talk about your own, like, you know, experiences and you know, the feelings that you were having at that same time.

And it's fascinating to me because, you know, I was like, oh, here are two of my friends who are like, they got their shit together and I'm over here, you know, like knocking my head against the fence because I can't figure out how to open the door. Right? Like, it's funny that, you know, the perceptions we have.

Of each other and of ourselves and how, you know, the, how other people perceive us as well. Cuz I, I, yeah, I don't know. Second glass of wine is kicking in. . [00:57:00] 

Shawn: Justin, who was your first male crush? 

Justin: Neil Patrick Harris and then Ricky Martin. Ooh, God. 1990s. Ricky Martin. Really? Yes. 

Soda: A bomb. A bomb. 

Justin: Yeah. Oh my God.

He can shake my anyway. Well, But nph, I remember watching Dogie, Houser. Mm-hmm. and thinking like not knowing, right. Like what was going on because I was, you know, not quite aware, but just being like, I really wanna have a computer where I type my journal. I wanna be a doctor. I hate the set of blood and I want Doogie to be my friend and we're gonna cuddle 

Soda: in scrubs.

Yeah. . 

Justin: Exactly. 

Soda: Soda. Conway Twitty. I mean, I think that it was definitely like Conway Twitty, Kenny Rogers. No kidding. And [00:58:00] Randy Travis. You know, I kind of have a, maybe like a daddy thing. I, I don't know. But Conway Twitted though, especially in his younger days, like, I don't know, like tight fitting jeans.

Like I was just kind of thinking about his jeans, you know, when that was on. Yeah. I could see that his hair was so snoopy. 

Shawn: Those were some tight curls. 

Justin: Yeah. Once Tim McGraw cut his mul mullet, He moved up on my list. I'm just saying the mullet thing didn't get me. But Tim McGraw, without the mullet, 

Soda: you just wanna get closer to Faith Hill.

Well, I 

Justin: mean, that's it. Yeah. The, yes, I mean come on. 

Soda: Which I don't blame you at 

Justin: all. . Faith, if you're listening , 

Soda: maybe you can just have Martina call her for you. 

Justin: Oh my God. 

Shawn: Could you imagine? Okay, so you wanna know Tangent, something that I just learned. Soda. You're probably gonna choke on this, but I just learned is that Fancy by Reba McIntyre was actually written by Bobby Gentry.

Soda: Oh my god, [00:59:00] Shawn. I just, 

Shawn: you know why? Because we were added a estate sale yesterday came across Bobby Gentry album and I was like, oh my gosh. Soda Canter mentioned this and I've never really listened to her music, so I bought it. 

Soda: Wait a minute, you buy the fancy album? Yes. Oh my God, it's so good. $2. That, okay.

You need to look that up too, cuz like that, those are hard to come by. That is an excellent album. 

Justin: It is. It's really good. It's very good. Yeah. Shawn, if it makes you feel any better, I was this moment old when I learned that. So , 

Shawn: you should listen to it. It was 1967. Oh, 

Justin: 1960. Oh my gosh. So it's 

Shawn: like 25 years before Reba 

Justin: did it.

Yeah. And I thought it was risque for Reba to do it. Yeah. But like in the six. Oh, I love that. Alright, 

Shawn: so speaking of music, what is a song or band that you were really into in your twenties that has not held up over the years? . 

Soda: Oh my God. I don't know if any of it doesn't. Not hand like hold up. Like I [01:00:00] think I felt like I was really obsessed with Matchbox 20.

Me too. Pretty legit. I still think that that's legit. Me too. And then what was that other girl group Dream? . , yes. But I also think that, what is that song though, that they have He loves You. Not I Still as a bop. That's so good. And Mr. Cu Man, that's really weird. Like Dream and Matchbox 20. But anyway, I Pass.

Pass onto the next person, please. Justin. 

Shawn: Well, 

Justin: so I basically stopped listening to new music when I was like 15 according to all of my friends, because most of the things that I listened to on a regular basis are from the eighties and nineties Uhhuh. So but I would say that one of my favorite songs, my senior year of high school, I think was Chumba Waba Tub.

Oh, that's on my list. . [01:01:00] And it's still, if it comes on, I still am like right there, like, yes. And then the whole time I'm like, this is horrible. . Mm-hmm. . Why am I, why am I excited about this? Do you mean horribly good? Yes. Horrible in the good way. , you know who 

Shawn: else? Aqua. 

Justin: Oh, Barbie Girl. Like 

Shawn: to this date, I'm still like, that song comes on.

I'm like, this is the dumbest fucking song and I'm still dancing. Yep. So I guess, yeah, I don't know where does that fall? Where if like, has it held up? Has it not? Like it clearly has not held up, but it still means something. 

Soda: Yeah. Which is a feeling. Is there, because I think that anytime that you hear the, the songs, like it's, I remember even just like recently , like my nephews like overheard like our like nineties Spotify list or whatever that would, that was like some playlist.

Mm-hmm. . And I just remember they were like, this music is so bad. Like, and, but for us, like it [01:02:00] just, it's so nostalgic and it feels good and you remember where you were and it just brings up so many great memories. So I don't know. I think if it's still invokes a feeling for you, I think 

Justin: it's good. I will say this, that I did have a period where I tried to, where I pretended I liked grunge and metal much more than I do

Well, oh, I loved grunge, you know? No, no, no. And, and I appreciate the musical value. You know, the, I appreciate all of it, right. But I pretended I don't even know. I think I was a freshman in high school and I pretended that I was into like the grunge scene and really like metal bands. And I remember somebody was talking to me about Led Zeppelin and I like had a full on conversation with them about Led Zeppelin having never heard an actual Led Zeppelin song again.

This was also though though, like trying to fit in in my community, you know, in the town I grew up with. Like, everybody's doing this. Well, I shouldn't be blasting Amy Grant, I guess because [01:03:00] everybody's listening to listen. I dunno. Anyway, she is awesome. I love Amy Grant. 

Shawn: She's somebody else who got really fucked over for trying something new.

Yeah. . Yeah. And she like conformed back, 

Justin: although she, well this is a whole other podcast because she has been very though supportive of the queer community in ways that I didn't even know until recently, I guess. I don't know either. Yeah. Like because of the persona that is the, you know, the what we think of, right?

Like anyway, so 

Shawn: the, the, the, the Christian persona is what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Final question. What's something interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to or doing lately? And it doesn't have to be related to this topic, but it 

Soda: can be, I've been watching and also hating myself for watching Tell Me Lies, which is on Hulu.

I love this show and I love the writing because it basically like, it transports me back. We've talked about like the two thousands. It's kind of around this [01:04:00] time of a group of college students. If you have not watched it, you should. They're all horrible. And basically I am every single one of these people

And so I love watching it, but I also hate myself and it brings up a lot of really like deep seated things about my university experience in the most delightful ways. Hmm. I haven't even heard 

Justin: of it, have you Justin? I have not, but it's definitely on the list. 

Soda: Now. I will say that the, everybody is like attractive and like, they definitely hype up like the two thousands in ways that it did not look , like people did not look like that.

It's a little bit more glammed up in places than what it actually was to actually through live through it. But you should definitely look it up. It it's, it has twists and turns and it is these people or are horrendous. 

Shawn: Okay, tell me lies 

Justin: Justin. Well I am anxiously waiting the next installment of Morgantown Blues that I hope to receive soon from my friend [01:05:00] Soda Canter.

And I'm also, I'm actually some friends of mine at work and I have been doing some reading of various different books and one of the ones we're reading right now is called after The Ecstasy, the Laundry, which is all about like after you hit your Zen moment, like how do you, how do you keep like that going in your life?

And I've really been doing a lot of like that type of reading of what, what is our kind of purpose for being on the earth and the whole you know, spiritualism around yoga and that type of thing. And getting kind of into that, which has been fun. Cuz it's so different than kind of my upbringing and Catholicism.

And yet also, strangely related. But yeah, so that's a, it's a great 

Soda: book. Gosh darn Justin, like I'm telling you, my Hulu show. And you have to do 

Justin: that. Well, okay. I mean, yeah. I mean, but I'm also rewatching like the expanse for the, I don't know, sixth time because [01:06:00] Okay. This is after all of our conversations about like people's bodies, like there's a superficial reason they're attractive.

and it's 

Soda: space. Okay. Way to redeem yourself. That's good. I mean, like the other stuff too, like, it was nice, but it's just like, gosh, Justin. Yeah, you're, you're so smart and so perfect. Whatever. 

Shawn: All right. You too. Soda Canter, thanks for being here again. I really enjoyed it. 

Soda: Thank you so much. Loved it. 

Shawn: And Justin Hentges, you're no longer a virgin to the podcast.

Justin: Thanks for being. Oh, I finally got to pop this cherry. Thanks, Shawn. . 

Shawn: I 

Soda: feel like I set, I set you up for the worst outro , but hey, you took a 

Justin: swing at it. So I did. I did. That's how I wanna be remembered

Shawn: the world in many ways and across many countries is becoming increasingly threatening for queer folks. Last week I talked to Dr. Alexander Koff about how violent anti-gay [01:07:00] rhetoric on the part of elites, specifically politicians, is directly linked to increases in violent acts, committed against queer folks and the queer community in the United States.

This type of violent crime is on the rise, and it comes at a time when some political elites, particularly Republicans, have taken direct rhetorical and legislative aim at queer people. In this environment, it's tempting to seek shelter to hide. I wrestle with this to just keep my head down and get through life, and if that means I have to keep some things hidden or avoid being my full self in certain places, so be it.

But in fact, that's the very intent of this type of anti-gay rhetoric and legislation to make us all so afraid and anxious that we either conform, hide, or die. The only remedy is to some encourage and stand in the face of it knowing full well that some of us will fall. We will not all get out of this alive.

We are dying every day to be sure directly [01:08:00] through physical violence committed against us and indirectly through depression and shame. But we all lose if we hide one thing that we can do to make it bear. Is to be our true selves in the face of force's. Intent on disappearing us to show each other that we see each other, that we hear each other, that we have each other's backs.

We are not as alone as they would like us to feel. You queer kid in Florida needing to talk to someone, but knowing that anything you say to anyone at your school will be reported that you don't control your own story anymore. You parent in Texas struggling with the decision to take your trans child to the doctor and fearful that you'll be reported to the state for child abuse if you do it.

You budding drag queen in rural North Dakota, afraid to be out after dark, you little Mormon lesbian with a crush on a girl at your church, but afraid of excommunication You, Justin, organizing your thoughts in a script to come out to your [01:09:00] family, probably because you feel you need to make a strong. For why people should still love you after you tell them that you're gay.

You soda, keeping a secret from some of your closest buddies in the military because maybe the government will dishonorably, discharge you, humiliate you if they knew you were gay. All of you. I promise you, you are not alone. We need to tell each other who we are. It is a matter of survival. Whew. Alright, check back next Friday and every Friday for a new episode of Deep Dive Chat soon folks.