**This episode was recorded on July 7, 2023, one week after the Supreme Court issued its ruling in 303 Creative allowing some private businesses to discriminate against LGBTQ people.
If you’ve been listening to the podcast over the past few months, you know that I’ve been worried about the safety and mental health of the queer community, especially queer kids, as they sustain broadside after broadside from the far-right, the Republican Party, which has firmly set the queer community in its sights. Hundreds of pieces of anti-LGBTQ legislation have passed in Republican-led states – banning books with LGBT content, banning drag, banning trans treatment, and banning LGBTQ discussion in certain places. All of this stigmatizes and marginalizes an already vulnerable community. This, in turn, heightens not just the perception of hostility, but actual hostility and violence against LGBTQ-identified individuals. As you might know from my conversation a couple of weeks ago with Beverly Tillery of the Anti-Violence Project, this rhetoric and legislation has led to an increase in anxiety and fear within the queer community, but also actual, tangible incidents of violence against the community.
On today’s episode I want to dig further into the toll this is taking on queer people, queer families, and queer youth. So, I’m talking to Dr. Abbie Goldberg – Professor in the Department of Psychology at Clark University, and the Director of Women and Gender Studies. A leading scholar on LGBTQ families and queer youth, Dr. Goldberg has published over 140 articles, 25 books chapters, and 4 books – including, most recently, LGBTQ Family Building – A Guide for Prospective Parents. She’s also written for the New York Times, The Atlantic, Boston Globe, and New York Magazine.
We talk about some of her research, the challenges that LGBTQ families face irrespective of anti-LGBT legislation, but also the impact that this legislation is having on LGBTQ families and youth, the choices people face to stay or leave increasingly hostile environments, and how we can all, and should all, help LGBTQ families and youth in need.
And, then after the interview, an AI assistant comes through in its support for LGBT youth.
Recommended:
LGBTQ Family Building: A Guide for Prospective Parents - Abbie Goldberg
Mentioned:
Equality Florida
Claude 2
-------------------------
Follow Deep Dive:
Instagram
Post.news
YouTube
Email: deepdivewithshawn@gmail.com
**Artwork: Dovi Design
**Music: Joystock
**This episode was recorded on July 7, 2023, one week after the Supreme Court issued its ruling in 303 Creative allowing some private businesses to discriminate against LGBTQ people.
If you’ve been listening to the podcast over the past few months, you know that I’ve been worried about the safety and mental health of the queer community, especially queer kids, as they sustain broadside after broadside from the far-right, the Republican Party, which has firmly set the queer community in its sights. Hundreds of pieces of anti-LGBTQ legislation have passed in Republican-led states – banning books with LGBT content, banning drag, banning trans treatment, and banning LGBTQ discussion in certain places. All of this stigmatizes and marginalizes an already vulnerable community. This, in turn, heightens not just the perception of hostility, but actual hostility and violence against LGBTQ-identified individuals. As you might know from my conversation a couple of weeks ago with Beverly Tillery of the Anti-Violence Project, this rhetoric and legislation has led to an increase in anxiety and fear within the queer community, but also actual, tangible incidents of violence against the community.
On today’s episode I want to dig further into the toll this is taking on queer people, queer families, and queer youth. So, I’m talking to Dr. Abbie Goldberg – Professor in the Department of Psychology at Clark University, and the Director of Women and Gender Studies. A leading scholar on LGBTQ families and queer youth, Dr. Goldberg has published over 140 articles, 25 books chapters, and 4 books – including, most recently, LGBTQ Family Building – A Guide for Prospective Parents. She’s also written for the New York Times, The Atlantic, Boston Globe, and New York Magazine.
We talk about some of her research, the challenges that LGBTQ families face irrespective of anti-LGBT legislation, but also the impact that this legislation is having on LGBTQ families and youth, the choices people face to stay or leave increasingly hostile environments, and how we can all, and should all, help LGBTQ families and youth in need.
And, then after the interview, an AI assistant comes through in its support for LGBT youth.
Recommended:
LGBTQ Family Building: A Guide for Prospective Parents - Abbie Goldberg
Mentioned:
Equality Florida
Claude 2
-------------------------
Follow Deep Dive:
Instagram
Post.news
YouTube
Email: deepdivewithshawn@gmail.com
**Artwork: Dovi Design
**Music: Joystock
Dr. Abbie Goldberg - Holding Pride and Fear at the Same Time (This One's for the Kids)
[00:00:00] Abbie: The barriers are heightened right now. So regardless of what happens legally, people, as you pointed out, with this recent court case being decided last week, people are now scared that anywhere they go, they could just be denied support services, accommodations because someone has a problem with them.
[00:00:29] And that that's okay. So that case has really concerned folks that it's opened up. Essentially, it's a permission slip to discriminate.
[00:00:45] Shawn: Welcome to Deep Dive with me, Shawn c Fettig. If you've been listening to the podcast over the past few months, you know that I've been worried about the safety and mental health of the queer community, especially queer kids. As they sustain broadside [00:01:00] after broadside from the far right, the Republican party, which has firmly set the queer community in its sights, hundreds of pieces of anti L G B T Q legislation have passed in Republican-led states banning books with L G B T Q content banning drag, banning trans treatment, and banning BT Q discussion in certain places.
[00:01:21] All of this stigmatizes and marginalizes an already vulnerable community. This, in turn, heightens not just the perception of hostility, but actual hostility and violence against L G B T Q identified individuals. As you might remember from my conversation a couple of weeks ago with Beverly Tillery of the Anti-Violence Project, this rhetoric and legislation has led to an increase in anxiety and fear within the queer community.
[00:01:48] But also actual tangible incidents of violence against the community. On today's episode, I wanna dig further into the toll this is taking on queer people, queer families, and queer youth. [00:02:00] So I'm talking to Dr. Abbie Goldberg, professor in the Department of Psychology at Clark University, and the Director of Women and Gender Studies.
[00:02:08] A leading scholar in L G B T Q Families and Queer Youth. Dr. Goldberg has published over 140 articles, 25 book chapters, and four books, including most recently, L G B T Q, family Building, A Guide for Prospective Parents. She's also written for the New York Times, the Atlantic, Boston Globe, and New York magazine.
[00:02:28] We talk about some of her research, the challenges that L G B T Q families face, irrespective of anti G BT Q legislation. But also the impact that this legislation is having on BT Q, families and youth, the choices people face to stay or leave increasingly hostile environments and how we can all and should all help G B T Q families and youth in need.
[00:02:52] And then stay tuned after the interview when even an AI assistant comes through in its support for G B T Q Youth. [00:03:00] If you like this episode or any episode, please give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. And as always, if you have any thoughts, questions, or comments, please feel free to email me at deep dive with Shawn gmail.com.
[00:03:17] Let's do a deep dive.
[00:03:23] Dr. Goldberg, thanks for being here. How are you?
[00:03:26] Abbie: I'm okay. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:03:28] Shawn: Absolutely. So let's just jump right in. With literally hundreds of pieces of legislation, primarily in Republican LED states going into effect that target lgbtq plus people, it might seem obvious that we should be considering the impact that this has.
[00:03:43] On lgbtq plus families, but it seems that most of the attention or the framing anyways on the impact this might have on the presidential election, the horse race component of it, how republicans are trying to carve out a lane for themselves that can benefit them electorally. And if this is a winning strategy, et cetera, you know, [00:04:00] very rarely is attention paid to the harm that these policies are actually doing to people.
[00:04:04] And so that's why I'm excited to have you here because you study this and you do talk about the impact. So outside of the obvious, it's maybe good for us to understand how these policies, you know, such as the, don't say gay bill in Florida as it's called, and others like it in other states, as well as the bills outlawing trans care.
[00:04:20] You know, how these policies disproportionately impact LGBTQ plus families. So let's start by discussing how the baseline world that LGBTQ plus people live in. Is fundamentally different than the world that straight people live in. So what unique challenges do LGBTQ plus people generally encounter as parents?
[00:04:39] Abbie: Well, that's a huge question. Um, but I will say that just right off the bat, it depends on where you live. It depends on what stage of the kind of parenting life cycle you're in. And it depends tremendously on what intersecting privileges or disadvantages you hold, whether it be. [00:05:00] Race, or whether it be economic status or children with disabilities.
[00:05:05] All these things intersect to make life either more challenging or less challenging, relatively speaking. So the kinds of challenges that parents L G B T parents face will vary so much depending on, you know, are they living in a state with laws and policies that protect. The rights of themselves and their children.
[00:05:26] Are they living in an, in a community or a neighborhood where they feel comfortable walking down the street as a family, holding hands, putting, you know, rainbow stickers on their cars, a rainbow flag in their front, you know, yard, and it will depend tremendously on. What kind of latitude they have in terms of, you know, where they live, what kind of school they send their children to.
[00:05:52] Do they feel that they have choices in where they live, where they can go, whether. They [00:06:00] want to move, can they move? So it's really, everything is structured by that intersection of outside, right? Uh, and then inside, you know, sort of the identities that we hold in addition to, you know, the worlds that we inhabit.
[00:06:15] Shawn: So you talked about something that, you know, manifests in my life as a gay man, but I don't have children and I am married. But things like how we display our relationship, you know, do we hang a flag? Do we put a sticker on our car? Do we hold hands? You know, the things that you mentioned and something that I'm not particularly familiar with, but I assume.
[00:06:36] Must have some type of an impact on the trajectory of families, both interpersonally, but also as you know, their development and as kids from LGBTQ plus families, whether it be parents or the kids themselves, they're launched into the world. I guess I do wonder how. Living in a space where these are considerations, you know, or even where you send your kids or how your [00:07:00] kids are gonna be treated.
[00:07:00] So living in a space where you have to consider these types of things in a way that straight families don't have to consider. I wonder what type of impact this has on the mental health of the individuals in these families or their, their development or their likelihood of success. Do we know anything about that?
[00:07:18] Abbie: We do well, these families tell us because when, for example, we have the opportunity to interview or survey families soon after, or maybe even in in anticipation of a big piece of policy or an election, for example. Two things that I've studied, so interviewing L G B T parents around the time of Trump's election and beyond interviewing L G B T parents in Florida.
[00:07:43] Immediately after and then later after the passing of the Parental Rights and Education Act or the don't say gay law, uh, they tell us the impact this has on them. They're more fearful in their interactions with strangers and neighbors and people that they don't [00:08:00] know, uh, and maybe even people they do know how out can they be, they're more vigilant about what they share about themselves, 25%.
[00:08:10] The families I interviewed in Florida said that they were less out, uh, as a result of the passing of that legislation. They simply just didn't feel safe in their communities or maybe in interactions with their children's teachers and holding a lot of, you know, anxiety and being so hypervigilant we already know.
[00:08:28] And being closeted has effects on mental health. You know, we've shown this, you know, this has been shown in many, many studies that, you know, all of the work that it takes. To manage the way that you present to the world and making those decisions constantly about how to disclose and what to disclose, and why are those people looking at me and are they judging me and my family?
[00:08:50] And oh, that, that person said something rude about, you know, two white moms with three black children, right? Holding all of that has cumulative and acute [00:09:00] effects on mental and actually physical health as well. And it will affect children because they are observant and they're experiencing this themselves.
[00:09:08] And many of the LGBT parents in Florida that I've spoken to have said that they've really tried to talk to their children about trying to sort of uplift them and help them to feel pride in their families, while also in some cases guiding them to be cautious and careful about share what they share about their families.
[00:09:28] Amidst what seems to be some pretty restrictive and hostile policy to, you know, basically saying your families are less than, in fact there's something wrong with your families. So children do internalize that, uh, and pick up on that. And of course, that can potentially impact children as well. So, you know, we actually, again, saw in that recent study that 25% of GBT parents in Florida said that their kids were expressing.
[00:09:57] Fear, anxiety, or avoidance of school, which is [00:10:00] pretty tremendous. Kids are experiencing a sense of dread about going into that environment now that this policy, uh, or this law has, has passed.
[00:10:10] Shawn: So I remember when I was coming up, the environment that we lived in was definitely not queer friendly, right? So this was in the nineties, but it wasn't, it wasn't legislatively horrific, right?
[00:10:21] It was much more that being gay was misunderstood. There was certainly discrimination and anti-gay bias. But the, the reaction that I got from most people was discomfort or I. Unsure of how to talk to me about the experiences that I were having. And that seems like a very different world than the world that we live in now, which frankly seems and maybe crafted to be so much more insidious.
[00:10:50] And this is, I think what you're touching on, which is that rather than. Regressing to a period of time where it's again, uncomfortable or maybe [00:11:00] something we just don't talk about that openly. It's actually quite hostile. I remember reading a story recently, this is somewhat anecdotal, but you know, a kid at school in Florida, some kids were picking on him because he came from a family that had like two.
[00:11:13] I don't know if it was two moms or two dads, and the kids said, yeah, well my parents are gay. And then the other kids started saying, oh, we're gonna get you in trouble because you can't say gay. You're not allowed to say that word. And that seems much more insidious to me, like it's, it's weaponizing it in a way that I didn't experience in the nineties.
[00:11:33] Mm-hmm. That's a very different impact, I think, on your development than what I went through. And I'm wondering over time, what might we see or what would you expect to see?
[00:11:43] Abbie: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that a lot of people have been kind of musing about the, the back left to greater visibility.
[00:11:51] As you pointed out in the nineties, people weren't talking about this and weren't, you know, the rights of L G B T. [00:12:00] Americans, uh, were, was not sort of front page news constantly being battled, but there was also a lot less visibility, right? Mm-hmm. So not to say that. There shouldn't be visibility because of course there's great advantages of visibility, but one sort of effect of that has been that people are talking about it and people's civil rights are being debated.
[00:12:25] So it's really stressful to have people that you are surrounded by, whether it's extended family or neighbors, or even just watching the news. You don't have to know these people. We're literally talking about whether you have the right to whatever, uh, or as you pointed out, maybe having these much more explicit discussions about L G B T identities, which are rooted in, you know, fantasy stigma.
[00:12:53] Unreal, right. They're saying things that are simply not true. Mm-hmm. And from an, as an [00:13:00] empiricist, right, it's, it's really, really painful to watch people literally spin tails out of nothing. As an example, we have decades of research showing that gay men are certainly, you know, no more likely and, and very likely less likely to be pedophiles, right?
[00:13:17] Mm-hmm. But we have an age old stereotype, right, where people assume that or assign that grooming language to gay men, and now actually all L G B T people that they're groomers, right? But in fact, straight. Men or cis men are the most likely to sexually abuse children. So that's just an example of, you know, people are, feel free to literally make things up in a way that maybe wasn't so true even, you know, five to 10 years ago.
[00:13:50] Uh, but we're in an incredibly stressful and kind of electric sociopolitical landscape where as you sort of mentioned in the beginning, there [00:14:00] is kind of this. Horse race slash both sides, um, which is really destructive because both sides are not equally valid. So I don't know if that directly addresses your question, but obviously living in this kit heightened environment where your rights are being debated on an everyday level is incredibly
[00:14:19] stressful.
[00:14:21] Shawn: I was about to move on, but then I was thinking there's this sad effect that I notice. With myself. Maybe it's a tragic effect. Is that like, okay, if this is the world that we live in, if this is the reality, and if we had a choice between regressing to the way it was in the nineties, or having to live with the way it is now, could we just have the nineties, you know, or whatever that reality was because it just felt less existential.
[00:14:43] Abbie: Yeah. I think that people are pretty, Divided even within themselves around that, right? Like there are people who say, I just wanna be left alone. I wish they would just leave us alone. I, I would rather just kind of blend into [00:15:00] society and just sort of tell the people that I wanna tell, uh, and others would say, no, this, these, this is, this is, uh, a fight we need to continue to have.
[00:15:10] And it's important that we continue to speak up. And there are all kinds of individual differences around. Who feels mo like they wanna kind of crawl back into the nineties versus not. And a lot of that has to do with privilege and a lot of it has to do also, I, I really think in some ways with kind of personality, right?
[00:15:30] Where some people are, personality might be the wrong word, but they feel sort of more emotionally and character logically equipped to engage in these kinds of battles than other people, you know, would rather. Give their right hand rather than en engage in a conflictual discussion about their identity.
[00:15:52] Shawn: Mm-hmm. And it's a fair point about privilege as well, because again, I'm coming from a space of, you know, a cis white gay man, and it's [00:16:00] quite possible that trans folks, trans folks of color, always had a very existential experience as it relates to their treatment. So maybe my, you know, the lens through which I see the nineties is, uh, skewed.
[00:16:14] But, okay. So, you know, I think we look at Florida as we've talked about, as sort of like a catalyst and a torch bearer, some for some of the worst kinds of this legislation that we're talking about. And, you know, as, as we both mentioned, this is transforming the legal landscape for families also. They're the, the landscape in which they, they feel safe.
[00:16:32] And I know you've done research in this area pretty extensively, and you recently published on the impact of Florida's Don't say Gay Bill on LGBTQ plus families. And as I kind of said at the outset, I know a lot of policymakers consider public opinion as like a precursor to the making of public policy, but we don't always know how people actually follow through on their initial reactions to proposed legislation.
[00:16:53] So it's one thing to, you know, survey people on how they feel about proposed legislation. It's another to [00:17:00] actually. Survey folks on how the enacted legislation is impacting their life, and this is where your work actually really digs into that. So I wanna talk about that a little. And you've talked about this a bit, but specific to like the, don't say gay bill.
[00:17:12] Like what are the real tangible impacts that this has on families? And then how are families coping with this? And I don't necessarily mean emotionally I do, but you know, very tangibly how are they coping with this?
[00:17:24] Abbie: Well, one sort of set of statistics that, you know, number of news outlets have now reported on were around sort of people's desire to move.
[00:17:33] And now I've actually conducted two studies of two different groups of L G B T parents and they're, they both found similar things was, which was that the majority of them, um, at least wanted to move somewhat. Or very much, right? So about 50% or, you know, depending on which study, 45% versus 50% said that they would very much like to move.
[00:17:55] But 18% said somewhat 17% were mixed, and [00:18:00] 3% said not really. And 8.4% said that not, you know, not at all. They didn't wanna move, so only just 10% really didn't wanna move. So over, you know, almost 90% wanted to move, or at least felt mixed about it. And what was striking, speaking to your point about action?
[00:18:15] You know, 25% said that they'd actively taken steps to move. So they were looking for jobs at real estate. That's a quarter of them. And about 10% I think said that they were actively looking at, or had already transferred their children to, you know, new schools or were homeschooling them. So taking them out of public school, for example, or taking 'em out of school and altogether and homeschooling them.
[00:18:39] So those are some very tangible examples of the kinds of actions that parents feel that they're, they have to make in order to protect their families and maintain some kind of sanity.
[00:18:51] Shawn: I wonder about the legal recourse that families have. You know, again, this kind of goes back to the point of the amount of fight that certain people have in them, but.
[00:18:58] Do families in places like [00:19:00] Florida have legal recourse that allows them to remain in place and specific to like trans care does that would allow them to still obtain necessary medical care. And I guess I wanna preface this question by saying I understand the legal landscape and the process, right? So people can certainly challenge this on constitutional grounds and then it works its way through the circuit courts and then up potentially up through the Supreme Court.
[00:19:24] And I guess I just wanna, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't. Mentioned that the Supreme Court just last week essentially legalized for certain private business owners, specifically those that are in some way doing artistic work to discriminate against LGBTQ plus people. You know, it seems to have short circuited or closed a potential avenue to address this, but I wonder, you know, as it's playing out on the ground in Florida, do families have any legal recourse?
[00:19:50] Abbie: Good question. I mean, right now my understanding is that there's a number of different, you know, court cases that are challenging these recent legislative, [00:20:00] well legislative wins for some people. Hmm. So it, it's hard to say, sort of speak really generally about so many different things, right? The parents of trans children and the, you know, L G B T parents and say L G B T teachers who are fired because they're talking about sexual orientation and gender identity.
[00:20:17] I think a lot of those things are gonna need to play out for us to see, but I think to kind of sidestep that question, the barriers are heightened right now. So regardless of what happens legally, people, as you pointed out, with this recent court case being decided last week, people are now scared that.
[00:20:44] Anywhere they go, they could just be denied support services, accommodations because someone has a problem with them and that that's okay. So that case has really concerned [00:21:00] folks that it's opened up. Essentially it's a permission slip to discriminate.
[00:21:06] Shawn: I'm getting ahead of myself here, but another project that I'm working on is the potential international options that queer families have to pursue if the United States becomes hostile enough. Do any of the families that you've talked to ever talk about potentially just leaving the country?
[00:21:26] Abbie: Yes. It wasn't a large number, but I would say it wasn't insignificant. So maybe, I think might be like 5% mentioned intern, specifically unprompted international.
[00:21:40] Potentially international moves. Uh, in a few cases they had dual citizenship or one partner had dual citizenship. Mm-hmm. So that seemed like an option. I recall that in one case they had a, a college age daughter who was already studying abroad who was in college. So they were sort of musing about [00:22:00] potential of joining her.
[00:22:00] Mm-hmm. There were a few people who mentioned relocating to Canada or Europe. And I think that they were very much still in the ideas stage other than the folks who were saying, you know, we basically have dual citizenship. This is an option for us, but I think that it's something that not just L G B T and thinking more about, but you know, people in general, I think all of us have had conversations with people who are toying more or less seriously with.
[00:22:28] Sort of the idea that, you know, maybe there are other places that are more hospitable to us and if things continue to go in this direction, would be we be able to, and would we want to leave? And that's an incredibly difficult question for folks. It's, you know, in some ways it's a, it's a bigger question than simply, you know, do we wanna move out of Florida?
[00:22:51] Because it is essentially saying the United States is no longer. Hospitable to us. There's no longer a. [00:23:00]
[00:23:01] Shawn: We talked a little bit about the potential, you know, the fear that it, that people are now weighing, which is that the United States itself, you know, regardless of where you move in the United States could potentially be, uh, inhospitable for you.
[00:23:13] But until we get there, we are actually living in a country that seems to be rendering itself to some degree, to potential realities we see in particularly Republican LED states, a spike in anti L G B T legislation and hate crimes. And that's coupled with steps that are being taken in Democratic LED states, some anyway, to enshrine protections for LGBTQ plus people and families.
[00:23:36] So this brings up the question, you know, which is an extension of what we've been talking about, the potential that people will move. So we've talked about people, you know, researching. Some people have moved, but is this serious enough that people will move in ways that are significant and measurable and will actually have an impact?
[00:23:55] So, I mean, I'm talking about almost being able to characterize this as a [00:24:00] migration. Mm-hmm.
[00:24:02] Abbie: Yeah, that's a, it's a really good question, and I know a number of researchers who are actively thinking on this. There's actually, you know, not that much. It's hard to study, right? Queer migration is something that we hear about, but it's not something, you have to have a sort of a start point and an endpoint.
[00:24:18] You know, how many people left from here to here, and it's very hard to measure that. You know? And for what reason? Right. Exactly. Right. And even if you could say, hey, in, you know, 2020 to 2022, we saw this many people who self-identified as queer leave Florida. And then, you know, 2023, we saw this many, like you said, we don't really know.
[00:24:41] We have to sort of, we could make some assumptions about why more people say we're leaving, but that's really hard work to do. It is work that is being done and can be done. And I know that demographers and economists to different degrees are working on some of those questions, like what is the cost to a [00:25:00] state?
[00:25:00] For example, if even 1% or 5% say, you know, probably pretty inflated 1% of L G B T Americans leave Florida, you know, what does that cost a state? You know, there's a lot of cost to states beyond just our people moving. Because honestly, we could think about Florida and think about the tourism industry. I know personally that, you know, there are many professional organizations that no longer will be holding conferences, for example, in Florida.
[00:25:32] Mm-hmm. There's many ways that, that might manifest in terms of how those impacts are felt, um, by a particular state as it relates to like Florida especially.
[00:25:44] Shawn: We have a rule in our house that we won't even do a layover in Florida. The reason is they passed that legislation that, you know, medical professionals, I don't know how this could possibly be constitutional, but medical professionals can deny care to people based on their personal values.
[00:25:59] [00:26:00] So we're talking about religion here. Functionally, what that means is most likely, if that were to ever happen, it would be denying care to LGBTQ plus people. And so that's existential, you know, if I'm even on a layover and have an emergency and somebody refuses care. And so in many ways, yeah, Florida becomes, to me, just absolutely inhospitable.
[00:26:20] Abbie: This goes to the point of, you know, there are, there are different impacts other than just moving. That is absolutely a concern for, for folks and it is a legitimate concern. Uh, and I have colleagues who have talked, for example, about, you know, they did experience a medical emergency while traveling. Or friends actually, or and family members and how different their experience might have been if they were denied care because of their gender identity or sexual orientation.
[00:26:48] How terrifying it is to have a medical emergency regardless. And then to have the added anxiety that you could, you know, you could face a, a life threatening or non-life threatening emergency and somebody could simply [00:27:00] refuse. To care for you. That is not it. It just sounds so crazy to even say that, right?
[00:27:05] That is not a risk, to your point, that some people want to take. And while it may seem unlikely, it does happen. And most people, you know, for both ideological and very practical reasons, don't really want to put themselves in a position where that's possibility.
[00:27:20] Shawn: And, you know, not to put too fine a point on it, but pregnant women have been living through this for about a year now.
[00:27:26] In some places, the potential that they won't receive the necessary care that they need.
[00:27:33] Abbie: Absolutely. And, and, and many, many will not. Even if they live, say in a quote unquote blue state, they won't even travel because of the possibility that they could be in the wrong place and be denied life-saving care.
[00:27:46] Shawn: This brings up the question, you know, we're talking about people moving, but not everybody can move. And I've been on both sides of this debate about, you know, people moving if they can. And so on one side there's an argument that if people can move to safer states, they should. And we should [00:28:00] also be helping people with mobility challenges to do the same.
[00:28:03] And then there's another side to this argument, and that is that we should really be digging in and fighting for equality and safe space, even in red states, that to give ground is to allow like hate and discrimination to proliferate. Do you have thoughts here? I.
[00:28:15] Abbie: It's just such an individual issue, right?
[00:28:19] I think no one wants to be told you have to stay and fight, and nobody wants to be told you should be. You should move, right? Mm-hmm. Both feel incredibly invalidating of people's individual choices. People don't wanna have to be in any position, right. Where they either have to stay or, cause that's a lot of pressure or they have to move.
[00:28:43] Mm-hmm. Because sort of, it's almost an like, you know, people will say, you know, well just move, sort of suggesting A, that it's easy, and B, that if you choose not to move, that there's something wrong with you, that you're stupid and it's just, there's this, this obvious solution, just move. [00:29:00] Right. So there is no easy choice there.
[00:29:03] And many of the people that I've surveyed and spoken to have said, you know, they feel a great tension, even if they're lucky enough to have the financial say, ability to move. Um, maybe they have a job that is a job that they could do from a variety of different places, which is assuming a lot. They feel incredible tension about what they experience as being forced out of a state that they often have lived in their whole life.
[00:29:30] Or for my participants, uh, over 20 years on average. And they are angry, right? They don't like being in the position of, you know, being forced to make this choice. And many of them have good and valid reasons not to move. Caregiving responsibilities for older adults and family members, medical providers, for example, for themselves or their children whom they trust and have built up a relationship with.
[00:29:57] A home that they've spent the last [00:30:00] 20 years maybe rehabbing and, you know, perfecting and, and whatever it is, they have invested emotionally and financially in a place, and maybe their family has always lived in Florida and they feel forced out or they feel as if they're being forced to make a decision that they don't wanna have to make.
[00:30:19] Shawn: I know a lot of folks that study queer politics, you know, messaging and framing of queer issues in the political world, and these folks that, as you know, as recently as last year, were saying that a lot of this rhetoric on the part of the Republican party was primarily electoral politics and that it would recede after the midterm elections.
[00:30:36] They pointed to like George w Bush's push for a constitutional amendment, codifying marriage as between a man and a woman in like 2003, 2004, and Rick Santorum's campaign around 20 11, 20 12. That cast, you know, as you mentioned earlier, LGBTQ plus people as pedophiles and how that all kind of dissipated after the campaigns.
[00:30:56] But you know, here we are and all along this [00:31:00] most recent version of it has somehow felt. Really different to me, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Am I crazy?
[00:31:08] Abbie: No, I, I don't think you're crazy. And I think it does feel different. I think it feels different for a variety of different reasons. Uh, and I think we have the, the numbers right in the legislation.
[00:31:19] Like we have never seen so many anti L G B T bills being put forward across so many different states. And it's not just sort of a rhetoric, right? It's not just people talking, it's not people just saying things, people are doing things. We are seeing people, you know, infiltrate school boards and school board meetings, city council, city council meetings.
[00:31:44] So we're seeing this really kind of across the board effort to invalidate stigmatize L G B T people and identities. And it does feel different and it is different, and I think [00:32:00] that we're living in at a time where people, especially young people, have more affirming attitudes around L G B T identity. So it's, it's really a confusing time.
[00:32:11] For example, if you're a young L G B T person to be growing at a time, up at a time where, You know, your peers in many places accept you view your identity as valid view, sexuality and gender as on a continuum. And yet at a on the national stage, you know, your existence is being debated. So it's a very strange time, very polarized, very confusing.
[00:32:38] And to hold that visibility, right, the pride. And also the fear at the same time is very unique, I think, to this new generation of L G B T, young people especially.
[00:32:51] Shawn: Is there anything that the average person can do to support families in crisis?
[00:32:56] Abbie: There's many wonderful organizations that are [00:33:00] actively fighting this, uh, legislation.
[00:33:02] I was recently interviewed for a special by, that was put out by the N B C affiliate in Orlando. That was really about sort of the L G B T people living in Florida and it had a lot of interviews and I was interviewed and a bunch of young people were interviewed and they were really centering a lot of different organizations, including youth led movements that were really pushing back at a sort of legal and a community level on this kind of discourse and legislation.
[00:33:33] And it was really inspiring. So, you know, if people wanted to say, Donate to a place in Florida. There are many wonderful organizations, but a Quality Florida is one that has been on the forefront of fighting this kinda legislation. Of course, there's many national organizations as well who have been doing critical work in this area.
[00:33:54] Shawn: Final question. You ready for it? I'm ready. What's something interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to or doing [00:34:00] lately? And it doesn't have to be related to this topic, but it can be.
[00:34:03] Abbie: Well, I have to say so because so much of my time is spent talking about researching really challenging issues, uh, I do try to spend my time listening, reading and watching things that are maybe, you know, not so fraught.
[00:34:24] And so I did really enjoy. Uh, a couple of recent non-fiction books, but I think what I'll sort of emphasize about what I've been doing, which has really been bringing me a lot of joy, is just being out in nature. For me, that is probably the number one thing that allows me to kind of come back to kind of the world that we're in, right?
[00:34:48] We do not have things to fight about if we don't take care of our actual environment and our planet. So I've been enjoying learning a lot more about, you know, planting native plants [00:35:00] and you know, what we can do at a community level to protect our green spaces. You know, really treasuring the green that we have because again, if we don't have our planet, we can't argue about any of this stuff.
[00:35:13] So really enjoying nature and doing what I can to kind of take care of it, preserve it. That's something that we all have in common too. We all have an obligation to protect our, our environment.
[00:35:26] Shawn: I have two quick responses to that. One is I'm hearing that more and more from people. Mm-hmm. And I don't, I don't wanna characterize it as a contraction, but people focusing much more on their community in this time.
[00:35:38] Uh, particularly stress and anxiety.
[00:35:40] Abbie: Yeah. As being a good mental health outlet for them. I think that's a hundred percent true and I think however you think about community, yeah. Getting more local with, you know, organizations, volunteering, you know, focusing on the good that you can do within your [00:36:00] communities.
[00:36:00] Because I think that's is where we also get a sense of control. We can see some tangible benefit or some tangible effect of our actions at the most local level, whether it's volunteering at. In the library or a school or you know, in my case, you know, cleaning up the environment or you know, simply picking up garbage, right?
[00:36:21] You can see an actual. Physical manifestation of your efforts. And I think right now people are feeling very, like they lack a sense of control at a more national and global level. And I think it's one benefit in sort of this way of coping is that we get some sense of agency back. Mm-hmm. Around the effects of our actions.
[00:36:41] And we feel less helpless when we're engaged in community efforts. Hmm.
[00:36:46] Shawn: My second reaction was with the preamble you gave as to trying to engage in things that are less fraught than maybe the work that you do. Yes. I thought, I thought you were like conditioning me to tell me something really vapid [00:37:00] that you watched.
[00:37:01] Abbie: Oh, I watch plenty of vapid things. Um, I don't like reality tv, but I watch all kinds of shows that are probably geared towards like teenagers. I enjoy. I also teach, I teach class in a class in human sexuality. I teach a class in. True crime. So I teach classes on things that people really are engaged, like sort of interested in and mm-hmm they find interesting and exciting.
[00:37:23] So a lot of my students tell me things to watch and I often do, um, because I feel like it helps me to understand them a little bit better what they're, what kind of media they're exposed to. And also they've given me wonderful recommendations of things that. I otherwise would, it would never end up on my radar.
[00:37:40] And I, I think are, are fantastic. And one example would be, um, you know, years ago when my student shared with me, uh, the show Sex Education and it's a great show and I now use it all the time in, in teaching and have even watched it with my own child. So it's a, it's a great show that really, [00:38:00] uh, illuminates a lot of different kinds of teenagers with different identities and different backgrounds.
[00:38:05] In a way that I think is very heartwarming, uh, and also focuses on sort of the real relationship. So entirely vapid, but it's also probably, I'm not the target demographic, but I still enjoy it.
[00:38:18] Shawn: Perfect. Dr. Goldberg, you're doing really important work. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about it.
[00:38:24] Abbie: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:38:31] Shawn: If you care about the children, then you care about the children, all of the children. If you support Proud Boys and Moms for Liberty, showing up in spaces that contain children like school board meetings, drag story hour libraries, school events like prom and theater productions to protest in a manner that involves abusive language and behavior, as well as the display and brandishing of weapons, including guns, then you're supporting the terror of [00:39:00] children and you should be more clear about your intention, your goal, you care about some children.
[00:39:05] And others you couldn't give a fuck less about. And you know, let's cut through the crap. What these far right legislators, far right white nationalist organizations like the Proud Boys and Moms for Liberty, these militant Christian organizations are doing is quite simply child abuse. And you may be terrorized because that's their goal.
[00:39:26] We all need to know that the rest of us that abhor this kind of behavior, that see it for the mindless abusive targeting of vulnerable people and children, that it is that we are out there and I'm pretty sure we're the majority. We need to make ourselves visible and heard. That's the support our children need from us, the actual responsible adults in their orbits.
[00:39:47] So if you're terrorized, that's understandable, but you're not alone in feeling like this is just plain wrong and you have a responsibility to push back. If not, this will only get worse. But imagine it could get [00:40:00] better. Just don't let the terror win. Don't hide. Our kids need us now more than ever to show up and have their backs.
[00:40:08] And for all you queer kids out there who might feel scared as if a lot of the adults in the world have turned against you, have targeted you, I want you to know that not only do all of us queer adults and allies exist, but we're here for you and artificial intelligence is here for you too. I asked Claude, too, an artificial intelligence assistant engine to write a poem for L G BT Q Kids.
[00:40:31] That expresses how the whole community gets through this together, and this is what it wrote for you. The poem is called A Rainbow of Love Colors So bright, a rainbow raised high. Each hue unique. Every stripe ally, those storms may batter winds loudly wail. This rainbow strong will forever prevail. Let purple advise with wisdom and truth.
[00:40:56] No judgment or shame. Only care for each youth. [00:41:00] Orange, give comfort arms open and free, a refuge of light for all. Toy and blue. Stay loyal, faithful friend on this journey until the end, green growth and peace. Pink loves first blush. I'll nurture the spirit, the soul to flesh. So hold the hope. Heart filled with light.
[00:41:21] The rainbow remains even in darkest night for you are beloved, not alone by far. And this holds true no matter where you are. Alright, check back soon for another episode of Deep Dive. Chat soon folks.