Dominic Arnall - Open For Business: Disney, Bud Light, and the Business Case for LGBTQ+ Inclusion

In this episode I’m talking to Dominic Arnall, CEO of Open for Business, an international coalition dedicated to working with the business community to advance LGBT+ rights globally. Open for Business advances LGBT+ inclusion and creates change in three ways – by constructing and promoting the economic business case, by catalyzing a global business voice on LGBT+ inclusion, and by mobilizing local business leaders to advance LGBT+ inclusion. 

We talk about some of their initiatives, their research, the practice of corporate pinkwashing, some of the best and worst places to do business, how companies support the LGBT+ community in ways that aren’t necessarily visible, how the US right-wing attacks on LGBT+ supportive business could impact the community, as well as business practices around the world, Ron DeSantis' war against Disney, The right-wing war against Dylan Mulvaney and Bud Light,if we could be experiencing an emerging paradigm that pits an LGBT+ positive economic model against an anti-LGBT+ model, and more.

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Open for Business

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Transcript

Dominic Arnall - Open for Business (Disney, Bud Light, and the Business Case for LGBT+ Inclusion)

[00:00:00] Dominic: What I would say, you know, is, is that what we, we are seeing, there's no doubt that a lot of businesses are backing away from making very visible signs of support for the L G B T community during Pride, for example. Mm-hmm. What we haven't seen at all is a sort of a lack of resources being given, um, to L G B T work, both internally, but actually more broadly in terms of E S G as well.

[00:00:23] So businesses are not stopping doing this work. I do think maybe the messaging is changing. For me, I think that might even be a good thing. I don't see the pinnacle of success for the L G B T community for there being just rainbows everywhere all of the time, for example. Mm-hmm. It's some of that stuff that's being hit, actually, it's some of the sort of very, very visible, some of the heavy social media.

[00:00:46] The idea that during pride making everything rainbow colored is kind of an essential part of our work.

[00:00:57] Shawn: Welcome to Deep Dive with me, [00:01:00] Shawn c Fettig. According to data compiled by Open For Business, an international coalition dedicated to working with the business community to advance plus rights globally. Support for for LGBT+ inclusion doubled from 2015 to 2019 amongst fast growing companies in emerging markets.

[00:01:20] In the United States, more and more companies have embraced marketing and branding aimed at the queer community, especially during June Pride month. But other measures are less visible things like targeted recruitment of LGBTQ+ people, anti-discrimination policies that specifically protect LGBTQ+ people and refusing to engage in markets, in environments, and places to LGBTQ community of year especially.

[00:01:50] Things have been changing. In March of 2022, Disney criticized Florida's Don't say Gay bill, that was signed into law by Governor Ron DeSantis. [00:02:00] This law bars any discussion or instruction of sexual orientation or gender identity in Florida's schools. In response to Disney's criticism, the governor asked the state legislature to revoke Disney's self-governing privileges, which it did, and then it also took control of the district's governing board.

[00:02:17] And replaced its members with those handpicked by the governor In April of this year, trans social media influencer, Dylan Mulvaney, posted a video on Instagram commemorating March Madness that included some custom cans of Bud Light featuring her face that the beer brand had gifted her, celebrating Dylan's 365 days of Girlhood series, which documented her transition.

[00:02:41] This sparked a massive backlash and calls for a boycott of the beer from the far right. Which led to a significant drop in shares and value for Anheuser-Busch, the parent company of Bud Light. In response to this drop in share prices, Florida Governor r DeSantis has announced a potential lawsuit against Anheuser-Busch for [00:03:00] breaching legal duties owed to its shareholders.

[00:03:02] We won't get into the fact that it's the far right's boycott that directly led to the drop in value in the first place. Things have snowballed since in June of this year, pride Month Retail Giant Target started pulling plus positive products from its shelves. After far right, activists and Republican attorneys General took issue arguing that such products were essentially grooming children leading to disruptive, destructive, and threatening behaviors from right-wing agitators in the stores, including yelling, bullying, theft, and destroying of displays.

[00:03:35] Many Starbucks stores across the country this year quietly instituted policies of not decorating for pride month, a reversal from years prior. All of this has me worried. So today I'm talking to Dominic Arnall, c e o of Open for Business, the organization I mentioned at the top of the episode, open for Business Advances, inclusion, and creates change in three ways by constructing and [00:04:00] promoting the economic business.

[00:04:02] By catalyzing a global business voice on plus inclusion, and by mobilizing local business leaders to advance plus inclusion, we talk about some of their initiatives, their research, the practice of corporate pinkwashing, some of the best and worst places to do business, how companies support the plus community in ways that aren't necessarily visible.

[00:04:24] How the US right wing attacks on plus supportive businesses could impact the community as well as business practices around the world. If we could be experiencing an emerging paradigm that pits Ant plus positive economic model against an anti plus model and more. If you like this episode or any episode, please give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube.

[00:04:51] And as always, if. Please feel free to email me at Deep Dive with [00:05:00] Shawn@gmail.com. Let's do a deep dive.

[00:05:06] Dominic Arnal, thanks for being here. How are you? 

[00:05:09] Dominic: Very well, thanks. Ye I'm, 

[00:05:10] Shawn: I'm well too. Thank you. I'm, uh, both excited and anxious about having this conversation. Primarily because I know next to nothing about economics and business development, but there is a significant intersection with some things that I do know a little about, and that's politics and the L G B T Q community and these three things together, business politics, the L G B T Q community are all taking center stage for better or worse in different ways in a lot of places around the world today.

[00:05:37] So I'm glad to have you here to talk about this. 

[00:05:39] Dominic: Oh, I'm glad. Very glad to be here. 

[00:05:42] Shawn: So first things first. Tell me about Open for Business. 

[00:05:44] Dominic: Absolutely. So, uh, open For Business is a coalition of global organizations, um, that really is using to har looking to harness the power of the private sector to change the world and make life better for, for L G B T Q people, um, everywhere.

[00:05:59] Shawn: [00:06:00] So to me this seems like small space. Not a lot of folks are focusing on this, at least the intersectionality that they might be focusing on certain portions of this. People that are focusing on the queer community and politics or politics and business. But these three together just doesn't seem like there's a lot of folks operating in that space.

[00:06:19] Dominic: I think you're right. Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting really, 'cause I think a lot of people in the L G B T space make, um, broadly a similar case that that's been made for a long time, which is that globally people should respect the human rights of L G B T people. Um, and of course I agree with that.

[00:06:34] I worked, um, for a large, uh, L G B T N G O for, for a long time doing, doing something very similar, doing quite traditional human rights work. I think that one of the difficulties is that actually the fact that L G B T people have human rights and those human rights should be respected is not self-evident in a lot of contexts.

[00:06:52] And I think it's quite difficult for us sometimes to look really at those contexts where, where life is very difficult for L G B T people and to think [00:07:00] that maybe we need to change our approach a little and and I, and I suppose that's what we aim to do at Open for Business. So we make the argument augmented by research that L G B T inclusivity is good for municipalities, good for business, and good for the economy.

[00:07:12] And we do that. Typically, we would do a review of an area which could include up to 200 new pieces of evidence. So we're talking about global data sources, national, regional, and local. Looking at things like existing research, papers, reports, articles, and presentations, as well as looking, doing new primary research where it's needed.

[00:07:30] To look into, for example, uh, the views of HR directors in a particular context. And we present the evidence in 27 different propositions on three levels. So economic performance, business performance, and individual performance. Aiming to create new data to support the idea that L G B T inclusion is better for national competitiveness and creates stronger financial results.

[00:07:52] Shawn: You've made the argument that L G B T Q inclusiveness is good for municipalities and, and as you said, good for business. It's good for the economy. I don't know that [00:08:00] this runs counter to conventional thinking, but I think maybe because we've invested so little intellectual energy in understanding this space, that the conventional wisdom is that either L G B T Q concerns don't really have an intersection with the economy and business.

[00:08:20] Or maybe worse, that an anti L G B T Q environment can also be good for business. And before we dig into that too much, because I do wanna focus on that a little bit, I wonder if you could make the argument that being anti L G B T Q is actually bad for business. 

[00:08:38] Dominic: Absolutely. So I think there, well there's a number of different levels.

[00:08:41] So if we take the individual business level, if you look at, um, FSE 500 at the moment, an awful lot of those companies pursue on their own, put an awful lot of money into D E I initiatives and into positioning themselves as being inclusive organizations. And I think some of this is viewed a little skeptically and viewed as pinkwashing and all [00:09:00] that sort of thing.

[00:09:00] But on the whole, actually, as someone who's worked very closely with a lot of these organizations, A lot of 'em are very, very keen to do this, and on a simple level, they're doing it because they know that it works, right? It's effective for their business to have people come to work and feel able to be themselves and able to perform at their, at their best potential.

[00:09:17] I suppose our proposition is that it's exactly the same for an economy, for a, for a society. That there are a number of very, very direct links, uh, to things that would be bad in an L G B T environment, uh, for your society. So, for example, if not everyone can access healthcare, if people have very different experiences in education, if people aren't able to access employment, if 10% of your population aren't able to reach their potential, uh, that could be very bad for your, for your economy in the longer term.

[00:09:44] We look across a huge range of different, uh, different propositions. So things like a lot of the economies we work with experience an awful lot of brain drain. So when young people get to 18, as soon as they have the means to be able to do so, that they will leave the country. Uh, this is definitely true of L G B T people, but [00:10:00] not just L G B T people.

[00:10:01] And of course there are impacts of things like tourism. Our research shows that not just L G B T people, but non L G B T people are far less likely to want to go to a place if they know that it has anti L G B T legislation.

[00:10:13] Shawn: I'm glad you bring up Pinkwashing and it's not something that I spent a lot of time thinking about, but I do know that I've had this conversation in different spaces and and on the podcast as well as to what Pinkwashing is and corporations or businesses engaging in this, you know, if we should be taking a cynical view of it.

[00:10:34] Mm-hmm. And I guess I'm of two minds. One is I do understand this argument. Pink washing could represent corporations cynically engaging in only in pursuit of, you know, making money, but that they're not invested in the L G B T Q community. But the opposite of that argument, I think, is the fact that they're willing to do that in any [00:11:00] capacity is a measure of support that we didn't have maybe 20 years ago.

[00:11:04] Yeah. 

[00:11:05] Dominic: Look, and I, I think within the community, there's a huge amount of disagreement on this topic. My view is that showing visible signs of support for the L G B T community, sometimes it's a little clumsy and sometimes it's not done perfectly, but it's sort of broadly a good thing. And you can see this whenever an organization withdrawals its support, for example, and stops celebrating something around pride, as we've seen, we've seen recently, unfortunately.

[00:11:29] Mm-hmm. So I think that what people are looking for when they see that is a sort of congruence between a brand's values, what they know about a brand and what's happening. So where organizations run into real trouble is where with their left hand, they're making a big show of pride, for example, and showing how inclusive they are.

[00:11:45] And with the right hand, perhaps they're engaged in activity that's actively harming the L G B T community. And I always use kind of Google as an example because Google engage in things around pride. They experience very little backlash, and it's just really because people would expect Google to be involved in this kind of a [00:12:00] work because there's a real congruence between their values, their outward face, what they look like as an organization, how people feel about them, and the fact that they're engaged with this work.

[00:12:08] I think every now and again, we come across an example where there's, there's a complete incongruence between those things. So it feels like someone is just doing something for the purpose of pride. There was a, a famous example that went around the internet of a makeup brand that had put up the price on its sort of rainbow themed merchandise for pride and had the identical product that wasn't rainbow themed selling at lower price.

[00:12:29] So that's, that's kind of marketing. I. Support for the L G B T community. But having worked with certainly the businesses in our coalition, and actually to be fair, a lot of other businesses over the years, I can tell you that business really does value this and that actually the case that they're often making is how to do more.

[00:12:46] And all the businesses we work with, I can say this very genuinely, are constantly having conversations about how they can push things further and do more and more for the community. And it really does come from a very genuine place. 

[00:12:58] Shawn: So I know that a big chunk of [00:13:00] your work is ranking municipalities on their inclusiveness, and you touched on this a little bit, how you measure that, or at least some of the indicators that you're interested in.

[00:13:09] I guess I'm wondering which places are doing particularly well based on the rankings that, that you employ.

[00:13:17] Dominic: So the places that are doing really well, and I should say that our last data was 2022. Mm-hmm. Um, which doesn't feel that long ago, but actually in terms of L G B T inclusion, it feels like quite a long time ago.

[00:13:29] Yeah. Yeah. We reviewing this data in 2024, so, um, we're going to have even more up to date data, but certainly as of 2022 cities like London, New York, San Francisco, Berlin, Sydney, and Toronto, were all doing very, very well. Had created this kind of virtuous cycle in which inclusion and competitiveness are mutually reinforcing, uh, with really highly developed financial and creative industries.

[00:13:52] So yeah, that will be an example as where we were as of 2022. We are interested to see, obviously there's been a, an [00:14:00] enormous change in the states, which we may talk about at some point, but also here in the uk there's been a bit of a change as to how L G B T, uh, inclusion is viewed in the press. And it will be interesting to see if the data comes out differently as a result.

[00:14:15] Shawn: This is something that strikes me because, and I'll give you a couple of examples and you touched on one, which is the environment changing in the states as a whole. But you know, I've, I've read recently an article about some blue regions. So in the states that's, you know, liberal regions in Florida that are particularly concerned that not only are LGBTQ+ people leaving the state, but that people are.

[00:14:37] Choosing not to visit the states. So tourism is taking a hit as well? Yeah, because of their anti L G B T legislation, but that in these blue regions, people are making the case that it's actually harming, you know, it's actually harming the community by denying dollars to some of these regions that are actually much more open than the state itself presents.

[00:14:56] Yeah. And then I have also read specific to the UK that the [00:15:00] UK has become, at least from perception of L G B T Q, people living in the uk, that that feels less welcoming than it did a few years ago. Yeah, 

[00:15:08] Dominic: I think that's absolutely true. I live in the UK myself and we've, we've certainly dropped down the ranking in IGAs inclusivity ratings.

[00:15:16] Yep. There's a lot of reasons though. The environment in the press feels very different how it did a few years ago, so it's been quite scary to witness. 

[00:15:24] Shawn: And I guess my question is how do you consider a national environment when you're ranking municipalities? Because San Francisco has always been somewhat inclusive, right?

[00:15:36] Yeah. But it's also sitting in an environment, a larger environment that is becoming less inclusive. 

[00:15:42] Dominic: Absolutely. I mean, so the slightly boring answer is it depends on the place. So obviously the, the US' legislative framework is kind of unique in terms of the state versus national picture. What we are trying to do and what we are doing as, as, without giving the game away a special feature on, in, in 2024 is looking at some of those [00:16:00] states and how they've changed and looking at comparisons between states like San Francisco and for example, uh, states in South where, uh, they've, where they appear to have gone backwards.

[00:16:08] So, um, you mentioned Florida earlier as an example.

[00:16:12] Shawn: I also wanna circle back to a couple of things, other things that you mentioned, both brain drain and tourism. Yeah, and I can absolutely wrap my head around the impact that that has on economies, that places like Russia as they become, not only less L G B T Q friendly, but at the same time as they're engaged in war.

[00:16:33] That is isolating the country. Yeah. That they're losing not just L G B T Q folks, but a lot of folks. Sure. And then tourism. Are there places that are better in like Europe than other places or other places in South America that are better than other places in South America? 

[00:16:50] Dominic: Oh, absolutely. And I, I think one of the reasons we focus on a kind of city level is that actually the difference within a single country can be enormous from [00:17:00] the capital city, uh, to more rural areas.

[00:17:03] And I think cities being economic hubs, um, that's why we focus, and indeed, in, in some countries will, we'll do an analysis of more than one city. So we do, we do around 10 in the states, for example. Yeah, I mean there are, there are kind of highlights all over the world as, as well as low lights. So for example, one of the areas we work in is the Caribbean.

[00:17:21] We have a program in Barbados. Now Barbados just went through decriminalization last year, and yet the mood is, uh, incredibly positive about L G B T people. They're already talking about marriage. Um, to give you an idea in the UK that took 40 years, that transition from legalization to marriage. Mm-hmm. So things are moving quite quickly at the moment, and they're moving, uh, negatively.

[00:17:42] Uh, in the same light, we, we have a program in East Africa, uh, that's based in Kenya and there are bills, uh, the Uganda bill, uh, the Antit L C B T bill in Uganda has, has attracted a lot of attention. But there are actually similar bills proposed in Kenya, uh, in Ghana. Oh. And yet in southern Africa, uh, places, uh, like the [00:18:00] Maldives, like Botswana are now propos are going through a process of decriminalization all at the same time.

[00:18:04] So it's kind of a constantly evolving picture. And I think a continental level is probably too wide a lens to, to put on it because even within Europe, you know, there was a few years ago Poland was an exceptionally difficult place to be. L G B T. Uh, Turkey is certainly experiencing some, some very difficult moments at the moment.

[00:18:23] And yet we're seeing Poland at the moment look to a position of optimism with the elections coming up. So, uh, I think sometimes we can, we can be guilty of, of seeing it on a kind of scale from the West going towards other areas of the world that we perhaps have a, have a sort of understanding of as being less developed.

[00:18:40] Whereas actually it's a, it's a bit more complicated than that. 

[00:18:43] Shawn: Sticking with this evolving environment. Something that strikes me, I, I guess to put this in the context of myself as a traveler, yeah. As the world evolves on this, I'm chasing the bright spots, right? And by that I mean the safe spots, the, the spots that I'm not gonna be looking over my shoulder or worrying.

[00:18:58] And then I think about the work that you're doing. And I [00:19:00] think it would be easy to really engage the places that are inclusive. But it strikes me that you're probably not, that some of your work is probably engaging the places that are contracting or not so inclusive. 

[00:19:11] Dominic: Well, you know, we try and do both.

[00:19:13] So we, we look at places that are changing is probably the best way to put it. So our work in Barbados, that's a context that's changing for the better for L G B T people. And it's changing all the time, is really opening up and unfortunately our work in Kenya is to do with aiming to stop progression. So it, it kind of goes both ways.

[00:19:32] I think what we look for is a situation that's changing that that global business can contribute to, to make its voice known. And what that, what that looks like is obviously very di very different in every, every sector. So an interesting example was there was a global tech organization that was considering putting a headquarters, uh, in Singapore.

[00:19:51] Singapore obviously being a place that cares very much about, about being open for business. And that place was, uh, that research facility was completely [00:20:00] canceled and it was canceled on the basis that partner visas were too difficult to get in Singapore. Mm-hmm. They had an awful lot of created people.

[00:20:06] They were pulling together to make this work. A lot of members of the L G B T community, and they didn't want to jump through hoops in order to get people's partners into the country. Mm-hmm. Uh, some of the other things that were happening across the region were that, you know, we heard stories of global businesses that were employing people's partners as cleaners and chefs, big businesses that were going through all these different little hoops in order to get people into the country.

[00:20:29] And this organization said, we, we don't want to go through that. So there are sometimes very, very solid examples of where cities have lost out on the footprint of big business, on the basis of inclusion. And I think that sadly, a lot of the time the cities won't hear about this. The business just sort of makes a decision and, uh, and leaves.

[00:20:46] And I, I think that it's our role to really show the level at which, uh, the process takes into account inclusion when it makes a decision within global business, which is only getting stronger.

[00:20:57] Shawn: That's a good pivot because I do wanna talk about [00:21:00] some of these regions and countries that are not so inclusive.

[00:21:04] So I guess the flip side of this argument that, that you're making, that inclusiveness is good for business is there are a lot of places that have been spotlighted as massive economic growth engines that are also really anti L G B T. You mentioned Singapore, but I'm also thinking of places like Saudi Arabia and Qatar and China Possible.

[00:21:24] Can be explicitly anti L G B T and still be engines for growth. 

[00:21:30] Dominic: Absolutely. And you know, we're not saying that it's impossible to be an engine for growth without LG being L G B T inclusive. Mm-hmm. As you pointed out, you know, I would say that a lot of the places you, you pointed out have, have wealth based on extraction.

[00:21:44] So, uh, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or the kind of oil states, um, have a kind of very specific form of wealth or, or historically, certainly with Dubai, When we speak to people from those areas, diversification is something they're incredibly interested in. So although it sounds, um, [00:22:00] sounds a little unrealistic at the moment to talk about L G B T programming in, in Qatar, ultimately those governments want very much to appeal to global businesses, to put headquarters there.

[00:22:09] And that's why they're getting involved so heavily in sport and that sort of thing. So I can absolutely see a time when, when they want to appeal to this, to the global community a bit more broadly. I think the reality is that when you have so much money from extraction, you'll need to engage the global communities probably lesser.

[00:22:26] And I think that that ring rings true of China as well, though. Um, though I think we'll see our sort of pitch, if you like, is not that L G B T inclusiveness is a prerequisite, but that it, it can absolutely benefit, uh, a thriving society. 

[00:22:39] Shawn: This has been making me think. And again, I don't know much about this, but if we only see this dynamic through this lens of L G B T, inclusiveness and economic growth versus anti L G B T, inclusiveness and economic growth, and as economic growth increasingly becomes an indicator for people on where they wanna live, [00:23:00] maybe even more so than other things like the type of government.

[00:23:04] I only mention this because there are so many people leaving democratic countries and going to relatively autocratic governments simply for jobs. Yeah. And I'm wondering if we only see this through the economic lens, if it's fair to say that we could be entering an era in which we start to see a schism between economic ideologies that could really influence a new world order.

[00:23:27] So like two competing economic models. Which is inclusiveness for L G B T Q people or exclusiveness for L G B T Q people. Yeah. That then battle for dominance. And I wonder if you've given this any thought or what you think this. 

[00:23:39] Dominic: Goodness. I mean, I think, I think sadly we, we are starting to see that sort of thing happen globally.

[00:23:46] I think thankfully there's some opposition even in the individual countries in which it happens. So what I don't think that we should be doing is dividing the world into countries that are good, inverted commas, and countries that are bad. Because actually within lots of [00:24:00] countries, you might have, for example, like in Turkey, quite an impressive government.

[00:24:03] A really strong civil society, and it's actually quite similar in Jamaica. Jamaica is pre decriminalization, but it has this thriving civil society. It has an L G B T community. There are also countries that have very regressive legislation where being gay is illegal and yet have an L G B T community that is, that is out, so to speak, and that that is thriving.

[00:24:23] And it is probably more based on the fact that it hasn't been politically. Sort of politically opportune for anyone to remove those laws than it is the fact that they would be implemented today. So it's, it's kind of a bit of a patchwork quilt. I would hope that we didn't get into a position where the oppositions, we've seen, for example, in the states between one side and another, continue to grow.

[00:24:43] 'cause I think ultimately that's not good for anyone and it's certainly not good for, for either side. I think you spent more time kind of fighting with each other and generally what we're looking for is a, where. We can learn from each other and that organizations and countries that are performing [00:25:00] really, really well see the value and inclusion as as a part of that.

[00:25:03] Shawn: So let's go down this rabbit hole a little bit because we've touched on it quite a bit. You just mentioned it again, you know, and I'm from the states, so I, I wanna talk a little bit about the states, and maybe this is coming from a place of anxiety and defeatism, so maybe you can help me here. But Yeah.

[00:25:17] You know, as we've talked about, there have been some states that are passing a lot of anti L G B T legislation that really puts businesses in the cross hair. So, you know, I'm thinking of Florida with Yeah, the fight with Disney. So any businesses that have exhibited like Pro L G B T Q branding or marketing have been targeted.

[00:25:34] And yeah, there's calls for boycotts. There's been legislation threats of lawsuits, and to me it seems like this could backfire, but I also feel like legislators that are doing this are really trying to reframe the debate in such a way that it might actually succeed in suppressing. LGBTQ+ inclusive programming and marketing on the part of businesses so that it might actually work, I guess is the argument that I'm afraid of happening.

[00:25:57] So I'm wondering, yeah, you know, what you think and then [00:26:00] kind of given the research that you're doing, and you mentioned some of the research that you're engaged in now for perhaps next year, what might this do to businesses in the United States and or do you hold out hope that this might just be a turning point for the positive?

[00:26:13] Dominic: Look, I'm a natural optimist and I'm an optimist ev even in the face of quite stiff opposition at the moment in the States. What I would say, you know, is, is that what we, we are seeing, there's no doubt that a lot of businesses are backing away from making very visible signs of support for the L G B T community during Pride, for example.

[00:26:32] What we haven't seen at all is a sort of a lack of resources being given, um, to L G B T work, both internally, but actually more broadly in terms of E S G as well. So businesses are not stopping doing this work. I do think maybe the messaging is changing and for me, I think that might even be a good thing.

[00:26:52] I don't see the pinnacle of success for the L G B T community that there being just rainbows everywhere all of the time, for [00:27:00] example. Mm-hmm. It's some of that stuff that's being hit, actually, it's some of the sort of very, very visible, some of the heavy social media. The idea that during pride making everything rainbow colored is kind of an essential part of our work and I think that that maybe even hits a bit of a natural ceiling.

[00:27:15] So it couldn't really evolve any further. And I, what I hope is that it's changing into something that feels a bit more congruent, that feels a bit more in line with an organization's values. And it's actually letting organizations say, well, look who are we, what's important to us and how do, how do we pursue that work?

[00:27:31] So I think there's no doubt that we're in a, we're in a bit of a storm at the moment. Not just in the states actually, but, but all over the place. And I think that things will get better and certainly talk from a business perspective. There's no one that is backing away from what they see as their obligation to be supportive to their community.

[00:27:48] That's not happening. People are being a lot more careful with how they do it, I'd say. And for that reason, I think that ultimately we will end up in a good place, even if we have to go through a difficult time to get there.

[00:27:59] Shawn: I think this is [00:28:00] an interesting point because there is a vein of folks that make this argument.

[00:28:04] Also, I think research that supports this, that when it comes to marginalized groups in here, I'm including obviously the L G B T Q community that in some circumstances and in some ways more visibility is not actually better. That more visibility promotes backlash. That doesn't mean that we should squelch visibility.

[00:28:21] Yeah. But I think from a strategic standpoint, and maybe this is what you're getting at with businesses in some circumstances, and in some places more visibility is causing maybe more harm than it's doing good. 

[00:28:33] Dominic: I think that the visibility has to be backed up by a sense of this being who the organization really is and their values.

[00:28:40] And I think we can probably both think of some high profile cases in the States recently where it has ended up with businesses being in a bit of a war over their visibility. And a lot of the time that's because the business wasn't really perhaps initially too sure of where it stood on the issue. An example I can think of is Budweiser who, who ended up withdrawing and apologizing and going [00:29:00] through this whole process and actually pleasing no one in the process.

[00:29:04] Because I think when you, when you make a commitment to L G B T people, and actually I think turning your logo rainbow, I, I wouldn't be skeptical of that, but I think it is a commitment in a sense. You're saying this is who we are and we're supportive organization. I think the worst thing you can do is kind of flip-flop on that because people, people smell a rat and they think this isn't coming from a genuine place, and actually whichever side of the argument you're on, that's something that's gonna really wind you up.

[00:29:30] So what I hope is that what we'll end up with is, is a sort of mainstreaming of L G B T inclusion. I mean, the point of all of all community activism in a sense isn't have the largest ever pride. Rights as everybody else. So hopefully what we're seeing is a move towards that and not away from it.

[00:29:53] Shawn: Something that, uh, you know, I think about often I see a lot of what the United States does through a [00:30:00] lens of the potential influence it has on the rest of the world. So specific to the conversation that we're having, I do worry that as the United States goes through this, I guess I would consider it some kind of a contraction on L G B T Q rights.

[00:30:15] Mm. That as we see this take hold in policy, but also, you know, as we're talking about the impact that it has on business and corporate initiatives and development, or at least how they present themselves or show their support for the community. I wonder if it's possible that this environment could have ripple effects for business in the rest of the world.

[00:30:33] Dominic: So ripple effects is definitely something we're aware of. Uh, they can be both positive and negative of course, but we see contagion, uh, from, and, and one thing we were really, we were really nervous about, uh, when we saw what happened with with Budweis, with Disney, is organizations sort of pointing to that and saying, look, we don't want any part of this.

[00:30:52] This looks like a mess. Which is a real shame because I think actually certainly on the part of Disney, I think that they may well come out better from this difficult [00:31:00] period than than they went in. But I think that what most businesses are going to feel is that they want to stay away from the very public clashes and that kind of stuff.

[00:31:09] And I think that's why they will draw away from public. Well, hopefully they won't, but they could draw away from public displays of support. That said, for every business that's getting into trouble on this, actually there, there are literally thousands that are not, and as we say, most of the businesses, the global businesses that are doing particularly well, are doing so and have very comprehensive programs of support for L G B T.

[00:31:29] People have very comprehensive pride offerings and are experiencing relatively little backlash as a result. So I think it's difficult, but I think you can overweight the exception sometimes, and I'm worried, I I do have some worry that, that we're doing that at the moment. 

[00:31:43] Shawn: So as we think about business through the lens of LGBTQ+ inclusiveness and rights, you know, we've talked a little bit about pinkwashing, and I think this goes a long way towards, you know, there's a, there's a whole host of reasons that people are skeptical of business and [00:32:00] motivation of business.

[00:32:00] But I think you're making the argument that people don't have to wholesale be cynical of business. Absolutely. So I guess I'm wondering if you could make the case for why people should be a little less cynical about business when it comes to LGBTQ+ inclusiveness. 

[00:32:15] Dominic: You know, it's so difficult really because businesses in a way are of like, I like people, you know, a lot of them are very difficult, are very sorry, are very different.

[00:32:24] And I don't want to say that people shouldn't be at least skeptical because I think that, I think that a healthy degree of skepticism with this sort of thing is okay. I think we should expect, for example, that if a business is making public statements about L G B T Q people that you can expect to see that, that that sort of values is replicated in terms of that business's practice.

[00:32:43] I think. I think that all, that's fine. What I would say is a kind of broad brush statement, so saying, well, all businesses only get involved in this. For extra money, et cetera, really isn't true. And, and I mean, I've met with an awful lot of senior leaders that have risked a lot in order to profile L [00:33:00] G B T.

[00:33:00] Inclusion have risked a lot in terms of the initiatives that they've led internally, have, have platformed, uh, themselves and, and have given platforms to others crucially, um, to really drive this work forward when perhaps it's been a bit less, uh, popular to do so. So in the UK for example, it's very easy to say, well, they just involved in products.

[00:33:20] There's a lot of places in the world where being L G B T inclusive doesn't sell any products really on its own. And there are businesses that are doing their very best to move the needle even in those very complicated areas. So I don't wanna tell people not to be skeptical, but I think not to be cynical is, is the right approach.

[00:33:36] Shawn: So how can people support both open for business, but also businesses that are LGBTQ+ inclusive? 

[00:33:43] Dominic: So if you come over to our website at www.openforbusinessuh.org, you'll see a list of our coalition partners who are involved in our work, and you'll see links to get involved with us as well and of, of course, we'd love you to come over and do that.

[00:33:56] Shawn: Okay, final question. What's something interesting you've been reading, watching, [00:34:00] listening to or doing lately? And it doesn't have to be related to this topic. 

[00:34:03] Dominic: So I have a two year old, so, uh, a lot of my free time is, is taken up with, uh, looking after her for which I'm of course very, very grateful. I do try and make room, uh, for reading, though sadly, it's, it's, it's definitely gone downhill lately.

[00:34:17] Shawn: I have a handful of friends that have children. It takes up so much of their time, you know, I'm always like, oh, have you read this? Or Have you seen this TV show? Or have you managed to go out, you know, kayaking or something, and they're like, I don't do anything but take care of my kids. So yeah, I totally 

[00:34:32] get it.

[00:34:33] I hope it pays off.

[00:34:35] Dominic: Oh, it, it does, it really does. I mean, I'm lucky in that I, I travel a lot for work, so, uh, I, I get to see a bit of the world at the same time, which, which of course is, is, is a real gift. So that does take up most of my time though. Uh, I wouldn't have it any other way. 

[00:34:49] Shawn: What are some of your favorite places in the world to go?

[00:34:51] Dominic: Ooh, that's a good question. Do you know my, one of my, I'll give you two of my real favorites. So, um, Bosnia and Herzegovina mm-hmm. Is one of my favorite places [00:35:00] on earth. Uh, so Sarajevo is just, uh, an incredibly beautiful city as a mo and then Sierra Leone, uh, is a really wonderful, wonderful country as well.

[00:35:09] Yeah, I think they'd be my, they're my two favorites at the moment. I also, I went to Singapore recently and I have to say I enjoyed it much more than I thought I was gonna. I was thinking of it in terms of being another global city, if you know what I mean. Mm-hmm. But it just feels like a lot more than that has a really strong local Singaporean culture as well.

[00:35:26] And some of the best food I've, I've had.

[00:35:28] Shawn: I think, you know what I find interesting about travel is that I spend a lot of time doing research when I travel on, you know, as we mentioned, queer rights. Yeah. Or the environment for queer folks. But it's not like I live an overt queer life when I go there. Yeah.

[00:35:45] And so it's not, it's not always entirely clear to me. If a place is open or not, or inclusive or not. Yeah. So I'm going off of what their legislation is like, or what their culture or social, um, environment is like. And Singapore does not rate [00:36:00] high, so I'm wondering if if it's the same for you if like you're really,

[00:36:03] Dominic: so I think the difficulty is, 'cause I have quite an unusual name.

[00:36:06] If you Google me, you'll see 10 years of queer stuff coming up, right? Mm-hmm. So I, I guess I'm, I'm, I'm sort of not that subtle as, as a traveler. I think that I do look very extensively where I travel and, and make sure that I'm careful. I think when I've been in parts of, and when I've been in some of the parts of Africa, I mentioned earlier, you know, I, I don't tend to.

[00:36:29] We're a lot more careful about just things like, for example, silly things like having rainbow lanyards and that sort of thing, which is quite common in. We hold conferences and events based on L G B T inclusion, so of course there's, there's paperwork that comes with those things that could out you or, or, or expose a group if you're not very careful.

[00:36:48] I think personally, much like you, I look into it. I d I try not to let, let it stop me going anywhere, and sadly, that's not entirely true. For example, I would, I would really love to go to [00:37:00] Russia and I've, I've been really into Russian books since I was quite young and mm-hmm. And, um, reading Doky in Tolstoy, and there have been cities that I'm, I'm really desperate to explore and given the way that they look into people that travels to the country on the basis of a visa, I, I haven't been, and I, I can't see myself going imminently either.

[00:37:18] Well, obviously not now, but even before that. So there are definitely places that I would say I would say no to on the basis of, of their inclusion. But I really don't like the idea that it restricts us either. 

[00:37:31] Shawn: I went to Russia in 2015. Oh, wow. How was that? I'm glad I, I'm glad I went then. Yeah. You know, it was, they, they, it wasn't a great environment for queer people then, but, uh, now I could not even imagine.

[00:37:44] They scrutinized me pretty well when I went in 2015. Really? Took my passport for, it's a weird thing, like I had to go to a building that took my passport for the day and then I had to pick it up later in the day. Wow. I'm pretty sure we have a rule that we're not supposed to hand our passport over [00:38:00] anyway.

[00:38:00] Goodness. You know, I met queer people there and it is just a very different environment. They live very closeted. They have a, have very thriving queer culture, but it's just all underground. 

[00:38:11] Dominic: Oh, absolutely. And again, they have a really good civil society, you know, uh, because Russia hasn't always been this way.

[00:38:17] I mean, it's been getting tougher from sort of around 2010 for L G B T people. Yeah. But I think, I, I think with Russia specifically, I've, I've run programs with, with Russian activists and, and, and I think that's probably sitting around online somewhere. So I feel like, um, I feel like I'd, I'd be probably disproportionately at risk.

[00:38:34] Yeah. I think though, Overall, you know, the world changes so quickly that every time I go on a trip, say it's a personal trip and not a work trip. If I go on a work trip, I'm, I'm excited to go somewhere new. And obviously we make, uh, decisions about whether or not that's a safe environment for me to go. But personally, I'm always sort of thinking, well, what's the best place to go now?

[00:38:55] And, and part of what I consider best place to go, I'm bt. Mm-hmm. [00:39:00] Even as L G B T people, we're probably not conscious of how often we make these decisions. You know? So Taiwan goes through marriage and you think, Hmm, Taiwan, I've never been there. Right. And it just sort of opens you up to the idea of, of visiting a place.

[00:39:14] So I think it's connected really, and I think it's true of individuals, I think it's true of businesses. I think that when, when a place appears to be progressing, when a place feels open, when a place feels warm, welcoming, friendly, whatever you wanna call it, it kind of comes onto your radar as a place that you'd like to go and experience.

[00:39:31] And of course, counter is true when a place feels closed off, when a place feels like you wouldn't be welcomed. You, you might go anyway if you've got a real particular reason to be there. Uh, but actually if you haven't, you might just go somewhere else. 

[00:39:42] Shawn: Mm-hmm. Absolutely true. Dominic, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this today.

[00:39:47] It was a good conversation. Thank you. 

[00:39:49] Dominic: Really good talking to you.

[00:39:55] Shawn: While many of us in the queer community remain skeptical of the motivation for [00:40:00] businesses when it comes to their LGBTQ+ support, I personally feel like visibility is important and the push from the far right to scare businesses away from supporting the queer community is the tip of an iceberg that could precipitate the rolling back of less visible support.

[00:40:15] Things like anti-discrimination policies, LGBTQ+ positive hiring practices, and more. So we should take every shot across the bow. Seriously. If we've learned anything from the rise of the far right in the past decade or so, it's that it never stops with the first step. They're always coming for more.

[00:40:34] So show your support where you can let businesses know that you appreciate the LGBTQ+ positive things that they're doing. In whatever ways feel comfortable to you. It does make a difference. Alright, check back soon for another episode of Deep Dive Chat soon folks.[00:41:00]