Soda Canter - Country Music Outlaw (and/or Queer in the Country Music Industry)

In the first season of Deep Dive, I interviewed Dr. Peter La Chapelle about the history of country music and how it evolved into such a conservative space that is aggressively exclusive of queer folks, folks of color, and also women. And, that conversation sparked a personal interest to dive a bit deeper into this topic, to talk to some of these folks that don’t fit into the dominant country music culture that are, nonetheless, playing in that sandbox. To hear their stories from their perspective – not JUST their experiences making country music and working in the industry as outsiders (challenges and rewards), but also where they came from, what their formative years were like, and what motivates them to do what they do – make music in an industry that can be hostile to them, based on who they are. This episode is one product of that venture, adventure. 

Today, Veterans Day,  I’m talking to Soda Canter – veteran of the United States Marine Corps and a gay country musician and writer out of Wilmington, North Carolina. He’s currently working on a short story series about a small river community called Morgantown Blues (which he mentions in our conversation) and on a debut country music album with guitarist Josh Youse. 

The first half of our conversation is really focused on Soda’s formative years – the backdrop to his life –his surroundings, his town, family, his education, and some trauma. In the second half, we talk about how this has all contributed to his artistry – his music and his writing. And, we talk about the country music industry – where it fails to live up to the values of its own origin – a music for all people, created by all kinds of people from all kinds of places; and also where it really shines and how supportive it can be.

Mentioned:
Bobbie Gentry
Terry Allen
Hailey Whitters

Recommended:
Soda Canter - Instagram
Sara Trunzo
Tiffany Williams
Adobe and Teardrops Podcast
Rainbow Rodeo Magazine

Counterpoint Podcast

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Email: deepdivewithshawn@gmail.com

Music:
Majestic Earth - Joystock

Transcript

Soda Canter - Country Music Outlaw (Queer in the Country Music Industry)

Soda: [00:00:00] Between the country music or any kind of artistic community, there's judgment about what's happening, what's not happening, what's right, what's not right, but then also judgment from the queer community, right? Being queer enough, not being queer enough, not being pretty enough, not any of these things. And I'm just so exhausted, like, Shawn, aren't you exhausted?

Like I'm just so exhausted of having all of this outside influence over deciding the destiny of my. , is this record or is my work going to be perfect? Hell no, and I'm, and I'm thankful for it because I don't think that country music is perfect. It should be frayed around the edges and it should tell a story.

And I think that I'm owed to be able to tell mine,

Shawn: I've said this before on deep dive and I'm gonna say it. I think that our individual stories are so incredibly important. They are the strongest indicators of who we are as unique individuals, but they're also the threads that bind us all together, and it's easy. It's tempting, [00:01:00] especially in mediums such as this, a podcast, but also on social media when we have limited time and space to say something, forcing us to truncate our lives and experiences into a finite and tiny number of characters, it's easy to cut.

Any part of a story that doesn't get directly and immediately at the heart of something. And when we do that, I think we perhaps unintentionally remove parts of people's lives that are actually integral to their story, to their evolution, to their importance, to their completeness. Instead, the totality of a person is reduced to a post, a tweet, the edited answer to a single.

and it allows us all to see people through one very simple lens. And the effect of this is to dehumanize people that the sum of who we are is one moment of time in our lives is one sentence, one response, one action. And I think it's crazy making because we are all more complicated than that. As my guest today and I discussed, we are heroes [00:02:00] and villains at the same time.

We exist in the gray. I'm telling you this because one of my goals for this podcast from the out. Was to provide a space to let people be their meandering selves, tell their stories in their own words, through their own lens as messy or organized as they would like it to be in the hopes that in doing so, we can reconnect with some of our shared humanity that I think, frankly is getting lost in our social media.

Instant gratification, 24 hour connection lives and at great expense. I think today's episode is the closest yet that I've gotten to that. So in the first season of Deep Dive, I interviewed Dr. Peter La Chappelle about the history of country music and how it evolved into such a conservative space that is aggressively exclusive of queer folks and folks of color and also women.

And that conversation sparked a personal interest of mine to dive a bit deeper into this topic, to talk to some of these folks that don't fit into the dominant country music culture that [00:03:00] are nonetheless playing in that sandbox. To hear their stories from their perspective, not just their experience making country music and working in the industry as outsiders.

You know, challenges and rewards, but also where they come from, what their formative years were like, and what motivates them to do what they do. Make music in an industry that can be hostile to them based on who they are. This episode is one product of that venture of that adventure. Today, veterans Day, I'm talking to Soda Canter, veteran of the United States Marine Corps, and a gay country musician and writer out of Wilmington, North Carolina.

He's currently working on a short story series about a small river community called Morgantown Blues, which he mentions in our conversation. And on a debut country music album with guitarist Josh Yos, the first half of our conversation is really focused on soda's, formative years, the backdrop to his life, his surroundings, his town, his family, his education, and [00:04:00] some trauma.

In the second half, we talk about how this has all contributed to his artistry, his music, and his writing. And we talk about the country music industry where it fails to live up to the values of its own origin, a music for all people created by all kinds of people from all kinds of places, and also where it really shines and how supportive it can be.

If you like this episode or any episode, please feel free to give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. And as always, if you have any thoughts, questions, or comment, Please feel free to email me at Deep Dive with Shawn gmail.com. Let's do a deep dive.

Soda Canter, thanks for being here. How are you? I'm 

Soda: doing great, Shawn. How are you doing? I'm all right, 

Shawn: thanks. Good. Okay, so let's just jump right in, in conversation with people and kind of regardless of, you know, the industry or work career, hobbies, Queer folks, folks of color, and, and, and [00:05:00] women have strikingly different experiences and challenges that just aren't part of the stories that traditional society.

And here, I mean like straight white men primarily, they're not part of the stories that this society tells. And to be completely honest, there are a lot of things in my life that I've, I, I guess, foregone or chosen not to pursue because. the challenges I expected to encounter if I did so. I've always been super fascinated with people like you that do choose, assuming that it's a choice, and for some people, they really don't have a choice.

But for people that do choose to take kind of that complicated, sometimes traumatic, sometimes prohibitive path in life, and I, I really firmly believe that you can't like authentically tell the stories of people that are not part of traditional dominant society. So again, queer folks, women, folks of color, folks with disabilities, et cetera.

without also talking about where they come from and what they've experienced. Because I think it's an important component of how they show up in the spaces that they do. So I guess I wanna bring that into our conversation today [00:06:00] that I, I wanna talk about your music and your writing and your projects and you know, being a gay man in that space.

But in order for that to really make sense and really, you know, help us to honor where you are. I think we have to start with where you come from. Do you, do you follow and do you. 

Soda: I, I completely agree. I mean, I feel like we could be on here for five hours just for that question alone. But I am, I am proudly from Southern Maryland.

Maryland. I like to lovingly call like the state that nobody wants, like the north won't retain us, and the South will definitely not retain us. And it's a weird. and historical and interesting space of different communities across kind of a tiny tiny state. I grew up like in St. Mary's and Charles County proper, which is really like water locked in many ways.

Like so Chesapeake Bay and Potomac River. My parents specifically, cause I think that this is a. Important Part of my story, and I've been doing a lot of reflection on it, is that my dad's side was kind of bible thumpers. You know, he was the [00:07:00] youngest of 11. and the ba the baby of the family and my grandfather, who I never actually got to meet but he was like a Southern Baptist Pentecostal preacher that took his family all across the Delmarva area, starting churches.

My mom's side of the family were more. A little bit different across the tracks. You know, a lot of prison time. Her father specifically and her brother, but also other family members and that extended family worked on the water. So they were shrimpers and crabbers and very much like proudly of like blue collar.

Although I like to call it salt collar. For me, like growing up in that household in Maryland, you know, like I. Was the only child for, for a little, a little while. My brother actually like died in infancy, but my parents like baby of the family. My mom was kind of the glue of the family when her father went to prison for like 25 years.

I actually didn't even know he existed until he was 13. And. You know, I think that there was always that struggle [00:08:00] within both of them of trying to prove themselves that they were better than or trying to get noticed by their family members. You know, my dad's side of the family hated my mom because of where she was from.

My mom obviously hated them. My dad trying to prove that he was the best sibling of all, which, you know, none of it works. So I think for me growing up in that household, they were complicated as most parents are. But I also think that they did their best to provide for me. I think, you know, looking back, you know, I'm looking in my early forties now and looking back in that space, you know, I had a very small town upbringing.

As a, a gay boy growing up, that was a little bit left of center a little bit different. It was, it was complicated and I think that early on, my parents specifically struggled with that of like, what to do with me, you know? and you know, I think that there was always these sets of rules I think that they tried to [00:09:00] follow for themselves, but also for me of who I should be, what I should do.

And I mean, the big, the big fucking thing right, was get out of this town. Like you're gonna go to college. You know, our family was not most of them didn't graduate middle school or high school. So like for me to go to college was like a really big deal. Mm-hmm. . But you know, my parents, you know, with those kind of sets of internal struggle, Right around when I was five or six, I was molested by a babysitter that lived in a neighboring space which really pushed my parents to leave that area.

I think it honestly was like a, a panic mode. I actually loved that farm and unfortunately that instance in that moment where we moved from there to Morgantown, Maryland and then into more deeply into southern Maryland in kind of the suburb area for a fresh start. at that point, you know, like I, it was 19 85, 19 86, people didn't go to counseling, you know?

Mm-hmm. . The woman that molested me was, you know, a family friend, and I think that that [00:10:00] was really complicated for my parents who panicked. That coupled with my brother passing away merely like, A year and a half to two years later. I think that both of those instances, I don't think that my parents ever really got over it, which as an adult, looking back like, I don't know how you do, you know, a something horrible happening to your child, you know, seemingly under your watch.

But then on the flip side of things, you know, losing a child, I think it's something that you don't really get over. So for me, you know, and based on, you know, a lot of that, I always felt this immense amount of pressure to stay in line, follow rules, be a good boy. . And so, you know, as time progressed, you know, obviously going through, you know, my youth, you know, I was made fun of, you know, I obviously had, you know, I was a sexual assault survivor before they even really used that terminology and, you know, really suffered with that through my formative years in elementary school.

But obviously middle school and high school. You [00:11:00] know, my tendencies you know, were more feminine. I wasn't a football player. My dad chose to coach other boys for like about 15 years. , you know, I never could like really live up to what their expectations were. I probably the standard high school experiences of being gay, but not really understanding how to identify that or to talk about it.

Obviously it was something I would never talk about, but going to school and getting away from them, even though it was DC and Southern Maryland, which could have been like, you know, 50 hours apart from each other mere hour and a half, like I think that going to school really changed everything. , but it also really didn't, I don't wanna really get my credit.

You mean university? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think that being away from under the rules and expectations, I was able to explore more, especially my sexuality, but also dream a little bit more about what my life could look like, you know? And I think that, , you change. Obviously when you leave home and you come back, you're [00:12:00] not the same person regardless of what occupation that you do because you're going into adulthood.

And I think my parents really struggled with that. In in what ways? 

Shawn: Simp simply because you were gone or because of the path you were charting for yourself or, or the life or career you were pursuing. . 

Soda: You know, I was, you know, I did theater. I, you know, sang. I did a lot of writing, but I was always told to kind of get a real job.

My, mm-hmm. dad was devastated that I did major in computer science. Cause I think he thought it was the key to the future. Mm-hmm. Which, no offense to anyone that studied computer science. I think it was just, you know, I was always repeatedly told that my voice wasn't good enough, especially about my father, you know, during those years where I was really, you know, you dream of things in college of what you wanted to become and, you know, I wanted to pursue the arts.

I wanted to direct, I wanted to make music videos, I wanted to do all of these different things in the arts. And you know, I was really told by him that my voice just wasn't [00:13:00] good enough and it. Mostly about like my vocals, but just who I was. I think from him. Like I wasn't strong enough to be able to do that and I should do something safer to, you know, kind of have the expectations of the family.

When I came home after college graduation and I was trying to, and thinking about moving to New York, I really struggled with those. Moments of, you know, realizing, having, experimenting with being gay not being bi or not having a drunken night, you know, with a man. Mm-hmm. , I'm in college realizing that that's really who I was.

And I chose a very different route, Shawn, I, you know, discussing what kind of man I was going to become, you know, living under my dad's roof. And obviously like with my, with my mom as well, and I called a Marine Corps recruit. It was a shock, I think, to my mom and dad specifically. My dad told me that I probably wouldn't last two weeks and he was definitely wrong in in that factor.

This was also [00:14:00] during the time, obviously a don't ask, don't tell, and so when I talked to a lot of my college friends, they were just flabbergasted and just shocked, and also I think very fearful. Especially at that time of what was happening to gay men, gay women, et cetera, like in the armed forces at that time.

And so, I knowingly did that. I signed on the dotted line, went in and the Marine Corps, you know, I was in for four years, which was my enlistment space. I definitely struggled with alcohol and as many armed forces mem members do. The Marine Corps has a really high suicide rate, especially at that time, but also the persistent use of drugs.

and alcohol especially, it's kind of built into the culture in, in some capacities because there's a lot of pressure there. I love the experience. It was difficult, but I think that, you know, I knew in my heart that, you know, when I didn't get the m o s, which is kind of like the occupational [00:15:00] specialty that I wanted, I didn't re-up.

And when I didn't re-up, I knew that as soon as I left that I was gonna come out to my parents, because at that point I was not legally obligated to. I wasn't beholden to anyone. And I wouldn't get in trouble at that point. So, you know, when I left, you know, I waited a little bit and then I drove home and came out to my mom as she was getting the mail because I just couldn't wait.

And it was one of those moments of please, Good Lord, do not tell your father. Hmm. I, you know, I was a, you know, as I said, like a, a good boy, I followed my mom's rules, you know, and respected her, you know, comfort areas in that moment, even though truthfully looking back like this was my moment , you know, it was my moment to, to tell the truth.

And she said that she never had any idea, which I think is, you know, kind of a, a little fid that she tell tells herself. And, you know, we waited a good. You know, my mom and I fought for probably like [00:16:00] the first time in my life where she would call my office. I was working at a law firm downtown as like a paralegal or a legal assistant.

And she would call the office just like in tears, you know, and just high dramatics, you know, and a lot of people forewarned me that, oh no, this is, sometimes this will happen for the first, you know, couple weeks. But don't worry, I think everything will be, you know, everything will be fine. It was never fine , it was never fine for that moment.

She had a lot of energy and you know, I still to this day, like, you know, respect her, understood the struggle that she had. The funny story is that my dad was moving around and working in different federal agencies. He was, you know, a plumber from Georgetown, but then had gotten different credentials going through all these background checks, and we have similar first names.

His name is actually not soda. You know, we had similar real first names and, you know, my dad came home and this was right around I. [00:17:00] Exited the Marine Corps on Halloween, which is so hilarious. I mean, how ironic is that? So, you know, exited joint and exited on Halloween. I mean, talk about costumes and

Then my mom, you know, we had these struggles for months and months and months and, you know, a year has passed, you know, of all this stuff happening. And my dad came home and told my mom, you and Soda little Soda have been fighting for so long and you haven't been telling me what's going on. He was like, well, today I found.

Apparently during a background check. Thank you so much. Federal government. During a background check, my dad got called him to question that he was living a double life . Cause they had all of these receipts from gay Barss from jr's, which I frequent in way too much because I love that Power Hour $7.

All you can drink. Oh my gosh, that doesn't even exist anymore. . Finding out that way, which is so hilarious to me now. And honestly just so fitting for my, for my family. My dad was mortified and had to tell the guy, I mean his, you know, security clearance went through fine, but [00:18:00] because, you know, he was like, that's actually not me, that's my son, which I have a lot to talk with him about.

it was around the holidays. It was right after Thanksgiving where he had found out and he waited until I was home. And while I think that our relationship. Already had cracks in it for a variety of different reasons. This is like the moment where I knew that we would never return into any kind of normalcy.

You know, he was. I can say a lot of things about my father, but I, I respect him still to this day. I respect his choices, even if it means not respecting me. He is somebody that stands by his word, and he said that, you know, goes through all the things. You're disgusting, you're disgrace. I can't believe that you would do this to us.

Like all of the things. And what really like struck me is that, and what I give him credit for, he's never backed down from. I knew from that point [00:19:00] forward, you know, specifically, even though it was very early on that forget financially, but just as a person, I was alone. Mind you, at that point, like, you know, relatives have come home from like killing people that they've served like decades long.

You know, prison sentences, they are coed out, they're on Oxy, all of these things. They've killed people drunk driving, all these horrible things. But me, , veteran gay went to college. I'm, I'm the bad person. Right? And it just, you know, I would always ask them about this and you know, they would always say it's.

We just never bounce back from that. Let me 

Shawn: ask though. So I mean, I'm kind of struck by this story for two, almost divergent reasons. One is, , and this is not to take away from anybody's story, but I am, I, I find it fascinating that folks that grow up outside of kind of dominant society often have very [00:20:00] similar kind of structure to their story.

The circumstances might be different, you know, the elements themselves might be different. And the second is I was thinking about my own experience and how similar, in many ways it is also very different, but how similar, and I think I expected, You to say that your, your family eventually kind of came around maybe begrudgingly.

And I'm wondering, so you say that you chose to cut ties or, or cut ties with your family. One, is that true today? And then two, if you see this all through a different lens in your forties than you did in your early 

Soda: twenties. I love that question. I think I have more forgiveness. And I think that there's probably parts of this that I'm glossing over because.

What I find now is that, like in my twenties and thirties, you know, my mom at that time too had her own health and mental health issues. There was heavy pill addiction based on a lot of legitimate health concerns. What they never [00:21:00] got past is that, Coming home meant that they were, the rules were, you are always welcome here, but your life is not welcome here.

And I could skirt around that early on when you're younger and try to, you know, we talked about the weather and how my job was going, but as things progressed, you know, especially with both of them, I think with mental health concern. We just started to really drift. You know, I would get irate phone calls from my mom.

You know, those are the things that never really quite stopped where it became more volatile over time. I, I am married n now, and you know, I think that going through that journey and different relationships, I felt, I couldn't imagine right? In my life where I'm married, if I ha if I, I do not have children, but if I did, How can I still go back to the space of people?

[00:22:00] Are cruel in different capacities and lashing out at me through all the dramatics of my twenties and thirties. You know, I think it got old, but for me it was a constant struggle of how do I repair this? How do I please them, but how do I actually please myself? And so looking back at it now, they had to make the decisions that were best for them.

And I think that they did do their best to understand that. But I firmly do believe. Apart from the gay, the gay part of my life, I just really believe now that looking back, I just think that we never really knew each other. I think that there were always these different facades and not just the gay part, but while I think that my parents loved me and.

In different ways and in their own way. I don't think they fundamentally liked me as a person. Mm-hmm. And especially for my twenties on, I had different expectations for my life. And it's not because I'm saying, oh, I left town and I went to schools and I did all of [00:23:00] these things and I'm better then cuz that's not the case.

I just think that I changed in ways, apart from being gay, that they were not able to understand or. I think I had different ethics and different understandings of the world than what they did. And I don't disrespect their views or what, you know, I mean, my dad is one of the individuals that had a rebel flag flying

Mm-hmm. from beyond, you know, like his, his pickup truck. And that was my norm growing up. Like I had no idea, you know, that is the kind of dynamic that I was dealing with and. When I, you know, was engaged and got married, et cetera, like, and they couldn't even be a part of that, I, how could I possibly be successful in this next phase of my life?

With having that kind of weight. So, you know, I definitely hear you. I think with boundaries, I just think that they always repeatedly broke them. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm trying to be careful because, you know, people [00:24:00] love to villa. They're villains, they're horrible. And listen, I could be for two more hours going through voicemail messages and discussing the the horrible things that they've said.

But I could also share the horrible things that I've said, right? Mm-hmm. as like defense, you know, as like defense mechanisms are in place. But I think that for them, like it just wasn't meant to be. And I think I'm at peace with that now and but I still respect them. I respect their choices cuz those are their lives to live.

It's not mine and I chose differently. So I'm 

Shawn: thinking about my own experience, which is very different. My relationship with my family is much more, and I think you said this as well, is in end, is much more related to, to something different than my sexuality. My sexuality played a role, I think at some point, and maybe I made that a bigger issue in my mind, in my, you know, late teens and early twenties than it actually was.

You know, I actually think that, . You know, me coming out to my [00:25:00] family was a battle that they waved the white flag on a long time ago, you know? Mm-hmm. has not been an issue since, but the war was a much bigger, it's not that I'm the hero of the story. I think something that, you know, I've come to realize as I've gotten older is that like my family played villainous roles at times, and I played villainous roles at times, but in my twenties, you know, it was much more passionate in.

you know, my family was much more important as it should be when you're in your formative years to me, and I couldn't imagine what life would look like if they played a smaller role. Mm-hmm. . And so any, any type of conflict with my family felt existential. Yes. And I reacted like it was. Now I am able to, as you said, be more forgiving.

but that doesn't mean also be forgiving and then enter back into the, you know, the lion's den. So I can really respect when you say that, you know, you've established boundaries and then you're forward looking. Because I definitely have a lot of people in my life [00:26:00] that have very contentious relationships with their family and cannot establish boundaries.

and then for lack of a better way of saying it, complain about their families or spend a week with their families and then talk about how they just gave away a vacation a week of their life and how horrible it was. And then they're gonna do it again next year. You know? 

Soda: I know, I mean, it's like break the cycle.

Please do not go to, to the outer banks if like, you're gonna call me crying. Right. And it's usually over because somebody ordered the wrong appetizer and then it's a snowball. Yeah. It goes into some And I, and I get it. I mean it's, you know, all families are complicated. All stories, everyone has trauma.

There's no one on the planet that hasn't been touched by some kind of traumatic event or series of traumatic events, or have had difficult parts of their lives. And you know, I think that this is just my story, but I, I love what you just said, is that I'm, I, I mean I am certainly a villain, right? And I've certainly been wrong and I wish that in part I have [00:27:00] led firmly a little bit more of grace and I wish I truthfully have like let go sooner.

Than, than what I did, knowing that we would've ended up here anyway. Mm-hmm. , you know, I don't see it as waste of time. I definitely, certainly don't live my life with. So many regrets, but I think that what others in my life have sometimes struggled with is that things at different points or achievements or disappointments, were always compounded by that, right?

Like I put a lot of pressure as an individual. to achieve things on my own. And when, you know, there would be a fight with a friend or a fight with, you know, the series of horrible boyfriends, I mean, that's a whole nother series, Shawn, that we should talk about. But like, but that's also cuz I was just seeking, you know, looking for love in all the wrong places.

But I think that it's because I desperately did want to find, I wanted to be loved, right? And I think that not being loved, you know, I think we want. [00:28:00] Find that area of comfort. And so people never really quite got that. I think it was easy for people to put labels on. Oh my gosh. Well, you're just so dramatic about that.

I'm like, I don't understand why that matters to you. And like it's because, because I've risked everything, you know, and I've given up parts. Right. And it doesn't make me, like you said, like I'm not a hero. Like, and I'm not, I'm not a saint. Certainly I'm a proud sinner. But I think that for me, I just didn't want to disappoint myself in the end.

You know, I, I don't think that I have. But I think that others don't really get, when you're by yourself what that feels like to not have that level of support. 

Shawn: So that all being said, that's kind of, that's a backdrop to maybe a pivot to what you are doing now. And so there's a, you know, strong country flavor to your music and I think you, is it fair to say kind of right from that?

Soda: Yes. I mean, I of course, like, I mean, what, what, what shouldn't I do? Like, let me just be a [00:29:00] gay country man. Why not, like, make things more difficult? But I, you know, my mom early on, my mom was a singer. She was a country singer. And so many of like my favorite. Memories at least, especially early on in childhood.

She would sing at like Moose Lodges and American Legions when she was much younger, like she sang in West Virginia at different spaces. I think she even opened up for Tammy Wnet at like some country fair. , it was always the backdrop. I mean, it was clearly a passion of hers that she never really saw, but I grew up around music and you know, was always really drawn to that.

And I grew up in the country, right? So obviously country music was very prevalent there. But I grew up with all of the classics, right? Like really loving dolly, loving Ray Charles, like listening to all these individuals tell their stories, right? And sing with pain and anguish. And so for me, I would say that, I mean, I need to find a different word for it because I hate being like, and Shawn, because I'm a [00:30:00] storyteller.

Mm-hmm. , but I mean, truthfully, like I, I do love telling stories and so, but I feel like it sounds really elitist of like, well, the story comes first. Right. But because I hate when songwriters say that, but cuz it makes it seem not accessible. And I think that everybody's story is valid and anyone can write and share their point of view with the.

Country music speaks to me because I think it is the music of the people. It's the Music of America. It is a melting pot of different influences and the stories are all there in the history of country music. And for me, I am drawn to sharing that. I, I think a lot of my music is, you know, and I'm in the process of, of writing this album and it's very much in a traditional lens.

You know, it's not, I am. Going to be a country pop star. But I think that for me it's very focused on telling the truth and being authentic about this point in my life and making it not so perfect. Right? I think a lot of these songs are [00:31:00] imperfect and some of them are even snippets of thoughts. And it's about me coming to terms with who I am as a, as a 43 year old man and where I'm at and my flaws and wearing them proud.

You said, 

Shawn: you know, you're not gonna be, you know, like a, a country pop star. And I think what you're saying is that the flavor of your music just doesn't lend itself to whatever is like contemporary country music. 

Soda: E. E. Exactly, exactly. And also, just to go on the record of this is that I cannot stand when country.

Musicians state. Well that's too pop. Hmm. And I just think that it's kind of laughable because I think that pop country is a part of the country music landscape and should be accepted just as folk music or blues or any of these influences that are part of that history. I have thought a lot about, and this is a random point to bring up, but I have been thinking a lot about, similar to.

Kanye West when [00:32:00] he took away that, you know, interrupted Taylor Swift acceptance speech for that video. But in the country space, like I've thought about like Charlie Rich and do you know this, like when Charlie Rich burned that envelope, when John Denver won for like, I think Country Music Entertainer of the Year because he was more of a pop artist.

Mm. You know, Charlie Rich's, you know, career declined after that. But it was also like people were constantly trying to take away from others' accomplishments, especially in the music field of like, that's not good enough. We're supposed to be this, when. Country music has always been about all of these different influences.

Blues, jazz, folk music, British Isles, music, like no white man who's a big gruff like outlaw, invented all of this. Like there's no, there's no such thing. All of the icons, like of country music, I mean, Why are we not talking more about the Leslie Rids of the world? Like who influenced the Carter [00:33:00] family? I mean mm-hmm.

his right leg was amputated, a wonderful blues musician and would travel around with the Carter family to basically be like their. Voice and transcribe a lot of these songs that were happening in the region. The Carter family would not be where they were without Leslie Brittle. Similar, like to Rufuss Payne, who was the one that taught Hank Williams, who seems to be like the king, right.

Of country music. Mm-hmm. and I totally and love Hank Williams, but Rufuss Payne is the one that taught Hank William. The guitar on the streets, he was an amazing like blues performer and I just feel like it's a little bit lost. Where why are we today telling people what they can and cannot be in a music that has always been about.

All of us, not just one specific sect. Like I understand there's parts of the business that are creating those barriers, but like, I'm sorry, like Mickey guy's gonna be the next big thing. It's happening right before our eyes. Mm-hmm. and the struggles that [00:34:00] she's going through to get there. It just seems ridiculous to me.

Because she is part of this history. Just as you know, in my own small way, my story's part of this history because everyone should be invited. It's our music. It's not their music. It's ours. 

Shawn: And then, and it's interesting in that pushback against change in country music is in effect always pushback against certain people in the industry.

So pushback against pop in country music is pushback against women. A faith hill was demonized after cry in the early two thousands and, and was never really accepted back into the country Music. You know, the, the chicks were pushed out altogether and it's also pushed back against black folks. You know, look what happened to Lil Nas X and, and Beyonce for their interpretations, and it's pushed back against queer folks.

Pushback against pop country does not negatively impact any straight white 

Soda: men. Yeah, I mean it's for, from my perspective, it's all there. Like it's, I mean, [00:35:00] obviously ignorant for a variety of reasons, but I do think this kind of like good old boy network is not being respectful of the actual history.

Like I, we're not making this up , you know? Like, it's not like, oh, but there needs to be more representation. I'm like, that is because country music should be representing. Different facets of life because it is drawn from the nation's, you know, like history and where we are as a society, which means everyone, you know.

I think that what's so wild to me is that. You know, especially what we see, you know, I look on the iTunes charts and anytime that anything legal comes out, then of course there's these certain sex that will fire off these songs, and I don't listen to that part of the music. Right? Like about, you know, all of the, you know, different kind of backlash, abortion, or, and Biden was elected.

All of these different things. I see it. And the thing is, is that what they don't realize is that people have been being political within country music, the entirety of this, right? [00:36:00] It's, it's meant to tell the stories of the times. And so when people like Loretta Lynn or Johnny Cash you know, kind of fighting back in different ways, like it's always been there, but mm-hmm.

oh, it's okay because they were. And straight, but they faced incredible backlash for what they were talking about. I mean, Johnny Cash had been like completely disgraced in, in many ways and he was singing from a prison and about like his life. I mean, he was in this space of. Honestly, annihilation probably, but he chose to tell the truth.

Mm-hmm. , Loretta, Lynn, the pill, like mm-hmm. , you know, all of these different moments. I mean, there's so many more where it's telling their truth, but it's also fighting back and making an argument for change from their perspective. And I think that that's what country music is. It should be. Being political, it should be putting your thoughts about the nation, about the world into music.

It's [00:37:00] odd that I just think that, you know, a lot of these white men think that that's not the truth. When it is, it's always been the truth. When 

Shawn: you said that you'll never have like a pop country hit. Another way to interpret that is because you are a gay man, and I wonder what your response is to that.

Can somebody like you. Make a pop country hit if that's what 

Soda: you wanted to do. That's such an interesting question. I think that for me it's honestly probably part of the reason why there's been like such, you know, a hundred year delay, unlike me even really actively pursuing this is because mm-hmm.

early on in my twenties and especially during my college experience, I expressed like this interest and I had a mentor. That told me that it just would never happen for me, not based on talent, but because of my sexuality. And I think that having that kind of like egg in the back, like it was always the secret, right?

So I think growing up the way that I specifically [00:38:00] did, but being in the Marine Corps and having to keep it a secret, it also built this. Space within me of like trying to keep it private, but not where, you know, if I had some kind of like song that was a hit or pursued music actively, then I would have to confront that.

I say that, you know, I wouldn't have a pop country hit because in my opinion, Shada, I'm just like, well, I'm just. You know, I, I mean, I used to be pretty cute, but I don't know if I , you know, I think of like these, like, you know, beautiful faces, tall, gorgeous and that is certainly not me at this stage in my life.

So that's probably what I mean. But no, I, I, I do think that, I think that for. Gay individuals specifically. There's like a split between kind of more underground like queer country that's happening, which I don't always like, love that term. But, and then also country music artists who have had reasonable success, who then came out and are doing okay because of that.

Cuz people are being supportive. Mm-hmm. . But you're right, like [00:39:00] there hasn't been like a big country icon that I'm hearing on the radio. or that is certainly within the top 20 on the billboard charts. Do I think it's possible? I mean, I hope that in my lifetime that it is, I would love to see it and would support it.

I am hoping that people like Paisley Fields especially with the most recent record, limp Wrist, you know, watching people like that. Watching people like Oreck mm-hmm. Oreck, who has definitely become a slightly more mainstream Yeah. But it's still not quite there. Like there's not even, I mean, . He even partnered with Shania Twain for duet.

Yeah. Yeah. Where was that? In the billboard. You know what I mean? Like, it's like people still can't accept it and he's wearing chaps all the time. Like, look how masculine he looks. Right. You know, like I just think that it's ridiculous to, to watch this happen, but I have such hope with the artistry that's coming out.

Paisley Field, mercy Bell, some of these queer artists are. I mean killing [00:40:00] it and honestly, in my opinion, more outlaw and more dangerous, you know, than many of the contemporaries that are happening right now. Mm-hmm. , I don't believe, like the Morgan Wallens or the Jason EENs or all these basic, like they're not outlaws.

Like if you wanna go back to Traditionalism, like look at Paisley Field. There's not been a more defiant country music record in years. Limp is a revelation and also looking at the work that Mercy Bell is doing, it's amazing. Like her Golden Child album that I also wrote a review about, but I'm a huge fan.

She's really pushing the envelope in in ways, and I think they're writing music that deserves to be. I think this is a really 

Shawn: good point and I'm glad you make it because you know, folks like, and I'll just, I'll just mention Jason een, but like, you know, folks in that same mold that try to position themselves as outlaws, I'm always fascinated by that because you're actually not doing anything new.

You're not doing anything creative. You're not doing anything that challenges the existing, you know, hegemonic [00:41:00] structure. You're just doing exactly what you would expect from an angry, straight white. Yes, they're trying to present that as being somewhat, you know, a challenge either to, you know, existing social structure or that they're outlaws within the industry and they're abs, they're absolutely behaving how I would expect them to behave.

There's nothing challenging to their character. There's nothing character building, you know, there's nothing threatening to their career in doing it. On the flip side of that, I think people like you and, and you know, and the folks that you mentioned and women in the industry, these are the folks that I think are actually climbing mountains and doing something significant because nobody goes into the industry.

I don't care what they say. Nobody goes into any entertainment industry saying like, I really wanna be an artist and I don't care if I'm poor the rest of my life. Everybody hopes to make some money out of it. Right. At least make mm-hmm. a living out of it. Folks like you in doing this are saying, I'm taking a huge risk because my path to get there is unforged, right?

Like, I don't know how to get [00:42:00] there. Folks like Jason Aldine maybe are taking a risk, but it is nothing like the risk that like you are taking because they have a well worn path that they can follow. They know what the formula is. And so I'm wondering like, how do you kind of square this knowing that it's a, it is a risk, right?

Soda: Yeah. I think that, I think I'm just at the point in my life where I don't feel like I have anything to lose. I'm tired of being at the point where I have tried to ask for permission to do something or wanting someone to tell me, but you are so talented. You should do this. Or, you know, oh, oh yes, like, but maybe if you could just try this, this way of doing this.

I just really want to be myself and I feel personally called to experience this. If I were to just be able to, which I will, but like record this album, record the other album that's [00:43:00] already like in the works. Finish this book of stories, do it. These things, like I just wanna be in that creative process and I'm so tired and exhausted of trying to talk myself out of it.

Country music is my music, and I'm tired of people telling me as a veteran, as all of these different points in my life what I can and can't do. . Even when I share songs with different songwriters, I actually don't even do it anymore because I'm gonna structure music the way that I wanna structure music.

I'm going to have the guitar sound the way that I want it to sound. I'm not listening to anything, you know, begging. Okay, well, you know, Carrie Underwood did this great thing, so I'm gonna try to like piggyback, like on the, on this to get in. No, I'm not, I'm not doing that like I want to. An artist that is creating for the sheer joy and act of creating instead of listening to the outside world.[00:44:00] 

I make it sound really like holy, or oh my gosh. Well, you know what a triumph. It's really not. It's a huge struggle. It's difficult for me to not judge every facet, and I just did it in this conversation, right? Like between the country music or any kind of artistic community, there's judgment about what's happening, what's not happening, what's right, what's not.

but then also judgment from the queer community, right? Being queer enough, not being queer enough, not being pretty enough, not any of these things, and I'm just so exhausted like, Shawn, aren't you exhausted? Like I'm just so exhausted of having all of this outside influence over deciding the destiny of my life.

is this record or is my work going to be perfect? Hell no, and I'm, and I'm thankful for it because I don't think that country music is perfect. It should be frayed around the edges and it should tell a story, and I think that I'm owed to be able to tell mine. We have spent a lot of 

Shawn: time talking about some of the challenges and [00:45:00] pitfalls in the country music industry.

But that being said, I love country music. You are in the industry itself, so you know, it has some redeeming qualities. So my question is, have you found support for what you're doing in the country music industry? And if so, where is it coming from and what does it look 

Soda: like? I think from the most, Special places first.

You know, I have my own songwriting network. Sarah Truo, who is an amazing singer songwriter in Maine and Nashville properly. Tiffany Williams. He's a wonderful folk artist who just had an amazing record all these days, drinking dust that just popped off. Its climbing up the folk charts who have been really by my side for, for, for so much of this.

I met Sarah in. Songwriting workshop in Nashville many years ago. We were both there working with Mary Goshay at one of her workshops, and it really just changed the course of everything and also established these relationships. But then beyond that, like honestly, you know, I, I would wanna say that Instagram is [00:46:00] pretty remarkable in the true, maybe like the bare basics of what it should be like.

I've been able to connect with so many other queer writers, but also queer artists who actively. Support me in different ways and, and live like Rachel Jost, who they run the Adobe and Teardrops podcast, but also Rainbow Rodeo which is a queer country magazine. They gave me my first break of being able to write, you know, even just writing about country music, which I've been doing over the last year and a half, and they have been by my side.

Every single moment since then and giving me opportunities and sending me opportunities, and I'm incredibly thankful because the passion is there. But also, you know, I, I think, be beyond that. I find that anytime that I reach out to another, Queer artist or a writer, the opportunities are there, the support is there.

You know, country music allies, which is another great Instagram page of [00:47:00] connecting those that are both allies, but then also, you know, constantly posting opportunities. I just, I just think that there's a lot of heart there. It's not always felt, you know, e everywhere because artists are artists at at, at the point.

But I do feel supported in my little tribe of. and the rest of it. I just think that I try to. As fearless as possible in pushing myself to reach out. I mean, there are definitely a lot of unread dms that fester or those that are red and are never responded to, but that's just the world, right? You know, I think that not everyone is gonna always be in your corner, but for me, I think especially over the last couple years in the work that I've been doing, I'm enough in my corner too, right?

Like I believe in enough of what I'm trying to create and what I'm trying to do. That when I need the support, it's there, but it's not always the need to get something done. Okay. 

Shawn: One final question for you. Okay. So what's something [00:48:00] interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to or doing lately?

And it doesn't have to be related to this topic, but it can be 

Soda: first and foremost, like, I think that like my favorite. Albums. Like I, I've been revisiting a lot of the albums as I'm writing. And I think like from start to finish. So, and I'm sorry, this is gonna be contr music related. It's not anything else.

Quite as interesting. I've been listening to, you know, I love Terry Allen's Lubbock on Every, everything, which is basically in the year that I was born. So it's been around for a while. Obviously like Fancy by Bobby Gentry and then also like Hailey Whitters raised album, which I think is just so special and wonderful.

All of this about very specific places and experiences. I've been writing this kind of flash fiction series called Morgantown Blues, which I've been live sending little snippets to like a smaller distribution list over the last couple of months as I kind of write this [00:49:00] book. The hope is that apart from my.

Self-titled or my own album from my perspective, that I want to have Morgantown Blues be a chatbook, but then also have an accompanying album. Cause I'm already writing those songs too. Mm-hmm. So it's kind of like a more lived in experience. I shared those albums because I think it's, they, it's very much tied to a specific place and time, and I think Haley Whitter specifically did that so beautifully on raised.

I don't think it quite got the radio traction that it really deserves. But it's, it's a phenomenal album. And does justice to her own small town living. And I think that that's what I'm trying to do with Morgantown Blues. Morgantown Maryland is a space where honestly, it's probably, you know, apart from Marine Corps bootcamp, which I said earlier, probably the happiest and freest that I ever felt I in my life.

It's a small water community nestled against the Potomac River in southern Maryland. And it's where a lot of my family [00:50:00] members on my mom's side. and as a youth like running around barefoot and jumping in the water, like it just, it's pure magic. Soda Canter. 

Shawn: I've really, truly enjoyed this conversation, so thanks for 

Soda: taking the time.

Thank you so much, Shawn. And also, one little snippet that I wanna say too is that the name Soda comes from an amazing bartender in New Orleans, and my advice to anyone is that when you're there, new Orleans bartenders can give you the best, most Destin filled advice of your life. That is 

Shawn: good advice.

Soda: Thank you.

Shawn: Country music, perhaps like life is very complicated and it's also vulnerable to colonization and subjugation at the hands of a dominant society. Intent on rewriting history and making it into something and never was. But it is also unwieldy and a bit of an outlaw. It's a difficult beast to harness and control.

And so despite concerted efforts to make country music into a safe space for just one sound, one. [00:51:00] One formula and one avatar. It isn't broken so easily. That's why people like my guest today, soda Canter and others like Mickey Guyton Lil Nas X, Orville Peck, Darius Rucker and Brandy Carlile, to name a fraction, can't be shaken loose from having an influence on shaping country music.

There are a lot of mixed metaphors here I know, but country music is by design a big tent, and big tents are for circuses. And who would go to a circus of just clowns? You need the whole freak show to make it work. Alright, check back next Friday and every Friday for a new episode of Deep Dive Chat soon folks.