Are We Past the Rubicon? - After 'After America'

Deep Dive returns! In this episode we bring back a number of contributors to our recently concluded limited series - After America - and ask if they have hope for American democracy, or if we already past the Rubicon. Can American democracy survive the storm of voter disenfranchisement, misinformation, and rising authoritarianism? This episode promises not just a look at the challenges, but also a glimmer of hope for our democratic future.

We explore the perennial struggle to uphold the ideals of equality and the essential role of our political institutions. And, you'll hear insights into how the Republican Party's transformation and Donald Trump's influence pose unique threats to American democracy. Yet, amid these daunting challenges, we find reasons for cautious optimism in the resilience of U.S. institutions and the enduring power of foundational principles like equality and justice.

What would another Trump presidency mean for the United States? Through poignant personal stories and global perspectives, we highlight the immediate and structural dangers we face. This episode isn't just a wake-up call; it’s a call to arms to protect the future of American democracy.

Featuring: Dr. Carol Graham, Dr. Kate Starbird, Dr. Edward Watts, Dr. Alice Marwick, Dr. Tara Grove, Dr. James Robinson, Dr. Sara Benesh, Dr. Benjamin Hett, Dr. Sheri Berman, Dr. Bernard Schlager, Jason van Tatenhove, Dr. Balint Magyar, Stephen Marche

Counterpoint Podcast

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Music:
Majestic Earth - Joystock

Chapters

• 0:00 Hope for American Democracy
• 14:15 Institutions and Faith in American Democracy
• 19:29 Facing Authoritarian Threat in America
• 28:48 Threats to American Democracy

Transcript

Dr. Graham: 0:30

OK, I totally agree with you that Trump not getting elected won't solve the problem, but Trump getting elected will pass the Rubicon right. I just the amount of damage that man is capable of doing with radical supporters and the elites around him, who are both incompetent but, you know, incredibly manipulative, and I can't even imagine. I don't want to.

Shawn: 1:01

Welcome to Deep Dive with me, sean C Fettig, or I should say welcome back, because for the past three months Deep Dive has been on hiatus while we've been producing and releasing the limited podcast series After America. If you haven't listened to the series, I think it's worth taking the time. All of the episodes are available via the Deep Dive feed on all major podcast platforms and also on the Deep Dive YouTube channel. The premise of After America was really born out of a single question what would the United States look like? What would life in the United States look like, be like if democracy were to collapse in this political moment when it seems like those are the stakes at play in this 2024 election? So over the course of 12 episodes, we examined all types of issues and forces challenging and pushing against our American democracy. We examined the evolution of the Republican Party and its deliberate manipulation of rules and laws to disenfranchise and confuse voters. We reviewed the quirks and vulnerabilities of the Constitution that can be, and have been, exploited toward authoritarian ends. We discussed political violence, misinformation and disinformation, christian nationalism, what we can learn from historical and contemporary examples of democratic collapse. The formalized practice of othering marginalized communities for political gain and power consolidation, the poor performance of economies under authoritarian regimes, how the courts can assist in democratic erosion, and we closed by imagining a second Trump presidency that led to democratic collapse in the United States and theorized how a better, stronger, more resilient democracy could be built from the ashes of American authoritarianism. Helping me along the way were scholars and experts on these topics. I invited and interviewed 28 guests, each with specific expertise and leaders in their fields, to provide knowledge, context and nuance to each of the topics. 28 journalists, authors, researchers, activists, economists and professors from around the world contributed to making After America. I am profoundly grateful to each of them for taking the time, for sharing their thoughts and their expertise, for making After America such a widely distributed and widely consumed series.

Shawn: 3:29

There is one question that I asked of every After America guest that was not included in the series. At the end of each interview, I asked of the guest given the context of the conversation we had and your expertise and experience related to the subject matter and looking at the political environment in the United States right now and the stakes of this 2024 election, do you have faith that democracy will hold or are we past the Rubicon In this episode of Deep Dive. We're going to take a look at some of the responses I received to that question. All right, if you like this episode, or any episode, please give it a like, share and follow on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. And, as always, if you have any thoughts, questions or comments, please feel free to email me at deepdivewithshawn at gmailcom. Let's do a deep dive.

Shawn: 4:25

Okay so, spoiler alert, none of the folks to which I posed this question was comfortable saying that American democracy was already past the Rubicon, that we're already in some irreversible decline. Thirteen of the 28 said outright that they were fully hopeful, one hedged not fully hopeful, but somewhat. One was optimistic about being hopeful and 13 were unsure. So we're kind of 50-50 here. It's worth noting that four said outright that a second Trump presidency would constitute a passing of the Rubicon. People had a number of reasons for having hope, some very specific and some a bit more general. One source of hope that was mentioned by a handful of guests was young people, or the next generation. Dr Kate Starbird, associate professor at the University of Washington and one of the country's leading experts on misinformation, disinformation and rumors in political discourse, has faith in young people because, while they're being handed a badly damaged country, society and democracy, she believes that they are brilliant and may have the requisite tools to fix what we broke.

Dr. Starbird: 5:37

I like that. You said hope, because I'm not confident, but I am hopeful. I don't think there's a particular signal that I have, except for this one, and that is I get to work with young people junior scholars and others and these junior scholars are passionate, they're brilliant and they are motivated and they understand that these are problems that are profoundly important to their lives, and they're not getting nervous about these things. I mean they're getting nervous. For me, the hope is just in watching and working with young people that are working in this space.

Dr. Starbird: 6:15

I do think a little bit of our panic in some ways is happening among a group of people where the world has really changed underneath our feet and we don't necessarily have the skills or the emotional outlook to be able to manage what's happening.

Dr. Starbird: 6:31

It just feels like the world was moving in one direction and we thought the world was going there and now it's not. But I think the young people are growing up with a completely different set of expectations, and I do. I am hopeful that there are a lot of people who care about democracy. There are a lot of people that understand more profoundly some of these things that you and I are talking about, maybe not even with words, the way we're talking about it, but they kind of like viscerally get it about how information works now and about how influence works and about what they want in the world. And I'm hopeful when I work with young people because I do think that we've got a lot of brilliant, motivated folks that are going to be working on these problems and I'm hoping that they can chip away and make it work.

Shawn: 7:13

Dr Edward Watts, professor at the University of California, san Diego, scholar of ancient Rome and author of seven books, including the Eternal Decline and Fall of Rome. The History of a Dangerous Idea also has faith in the younger generation, noting how aware they are that the generations that came before are quitting the game and taking the ball home with them, and that feels not just unfair but threatening.

Dr. Watts: 7:39

At a certain point we will, I think, move out of the generational politics that are creating such a sense of anger in the United States. I'm hopeful that millennial voters and Gen Z voters I mean, I'm Gen X and I don't think my generation is big enough to really make much of a difference but I think millennial and Gen Z voters will increasingly become the voting block that decides how we make our decisions politically in the United States. I spend a lot of time with these people because they are my students. I'm very hopeful because they are optimistic in a way that I think is quite different from my generation or a baby boomer generation. But they're also concerned and they're scared and they don't feel like the system is treating them and people like them fairly.

Dr. Watts: 8:32

I think there's a real necessity to get their voices in positions of authority quickly and allow their concerns to be expressed in a meaningful fashion and adapt our political system in ways that might be uncomfortable for baby boomers and Gen Xers, so that the millennials and Gen Zers do feel like they have a place in our system.

Dr. Watts: 8:55

And if we can do that, I think that things will stabilize. I think they want to live in a democracy. They want to live in a free society. They do not want to live under an autocracy and they do believe that a free society can give them what they need and create the sort of fairness that they desire. We have to open a path for them to create that world. Baby boomers are not going to do it. We really need to open a path for them to reinvent our system and revitalize our system, and if we can do that, I think we can get back to a place where there's a faith that representative democracy can do what it's supposed to do and look out for the best interests of its people and build a consensus about what's lawful and just around what people actually believe to be lawful and just.

Shawn: 9:42

Some guests expressed a faith in people generally or Americans specifically, that, at the end of the day, americans share similar values about freedom and liberties bedrock components of democracy that we won't abandon easily. One of these guests is Dr Alice Marwick, associate Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, scholar of misinformation and disinformation, and one of Foreign Policy Magazine's Global Thinkers of 2017. Incidentally, dr Marwick is one of two guests that stated that she might seem Pollyanna-ish.

Dr. Marwick: 10:18

I always have hope. I think optimism is a radical act in our current environment. You know, I saw Rebecca Solnit speak recently about the environment, and she talked about how people's feeling of hopelessness and disempowerment when it comes to climate change is preventing work getting done that's necessary to stop climate change. I feel the same way about democracy. If you feel that American democracy is over, that there's nothing we can do, that the Supreme Court has been bought, that everything's going to hell, how can you engage in a positive way, how can you get people involved, how can you feel good about the country that you live in? And so I really do try to think about the way things have gotten better since I was a kid, the way that you know. I have two children, and I think that they're growing up in schools where kids don't bully each other, where there's more acceptance of gender diversity, more acceptance of racial diversity.

Dr. Marwick: 11:21

I think there's been so many wonderful cultural changes in the last 30 years, and I think what we're seeing now is a huge backlash against that, but it doesn't mean that those changes haven't happened and it doesn't mean that those changes won't hold. You know, I don't want to go back to a world where LGBTQ people have to live in the closet for their personal safety. I don't want to go back to a world where we can't talk about racism and white supremacy in really clear terms and call it out when we see it, and so I think that for our democracy to get better, we have to believe that it can change, that it can get better, that there can be a future that we see. That is a future that incorporates pluralist democracy with positive lives and positive changes for all Americans. And you know that might make me sound like a Pollyanna, but if I'm spending all my time reading QAnon and white supremacist crap on the Internet, then I have to retain that level of optimism or it just gets to be too much.

Shawn: 12:24

Another guest, Dr Tara Grove, professor at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law, former attorney at the US Department of Justice and former member of the Biden Presidential Commission on the Supreme Court of the United States, tasked with examining proposals for Supreme Court reform, expressed a faith in Americans that is rooted in the founding ideals of the United States itself.

Dr. Grove: 12:47

So I have faith and hope that democracy will hold, even as I am extremely nervous and not just nervous, but extremely worried about the politics today and the political rhetoric. You know, as I've said, I think it's very hard to judge, when you're in a political moment, how this moment compares to the past, both because you didn't live in that past and because it's very hard to have a fully formed understanding of something that you're living through in the current moment. But I am extremely worried. I have faith and hope because I think that, in and of itself, is essential to democracy. I truly do believe to quote Star Wars a bit, but I think it is true that democracy ends only when we stop believing in it.

Dr. Grove: 13:34

And I think that one of the things that has kept the United States going throughout our history, even as we've had some pretty horrific moments and even though we went through a civil war a civil war that needed to happen to end, to end slavery, but was undoubtedly quite unpleasant for the people who were involved in that political moment I think the reason we have survived as a nation is that we have always had enough people who believed in what the United States stands for, what America stands for believed in democracy, believed in the quest for freedom, even as, at so many points in our history, we have not lived up to it. I was struck by something I heard President Biden say, and I think it's a really powerful quote, one that I now tell to my students. Whatever your own political background or political views are, the Declaration of Independence says all men like to say all people are created equal. We have never lived up to that, but we've never stopped trying to live up to that either. I think that's really important.

Dr. Grove: 14:42

I think it's one of the defining features of America that we have violated our ideals many, many times in many, many ways with respect to many different people. But, yeah, we've had those ideals and they've given people like Frederick Douglass and Martin Luther King Jr and Ruth Bader Ginsburg and other folks a rhetoric to advocate for the civil rights of all. And so I think the ideals of America, even if we've they've been manifested in perfectly, are crucially important and we have to have faith they will continue working. We have to have faith in institutions, even as we recognize that they are flawed, and we have to have faith in our system and our constitution and our democracy in order for it to work.

Shawn: 15:28

At the end. There. You might have noticed that Dr Grove mentioned institutions, and this is another area in which a handful of guests expressed a faith. Political institutions are established systems and structures through which political authority is exercised and societal rules are enforced. They include entities like legislatures, executives and judiciaries, as well as political parties and electoral systems. Institutions also include political norms and rules that we agree to and abide by to keep our democracy alive, like accepting election results, peaceful transfers of power, etc. These institutions are crucial for a functioning democracy because they provide a framework for governance and they ensure accountability and enable representation of diverse interests without resorting to political violence.

Shawn: 16:17

Quite a few guests mentioned the importance of institutions and a clear concern that they are eroding and being ignored and dismantled. Among them is Dr James Robinson, professor at the University of Chicago, political economist known for his extensive research on the interplay between political and economic institutions and their impact on development and inequality, and co-author of the influential book why Nations Fail the Origins of Power, prosperity and Poverty. Dr Robinson is worried about institutional integrity and also really focuses on the transformation of the Republican Party and the cult of personality surrounding Donald Trump as unique threats to American democracy.

Dr. Robinson: 17:00

You know, I mean, I think the institutions saved us last time. You know the federalism saved us, the way that votes were counted. You know the way that power was dispersed. You know through the political institutions. You know, like if you read, you know the Federalist Papers. You know that Madison and Alexander Hamilton wrote mostly.

Dr. Robinson: 17:19

You know it's fair, it's clear that institutions are. You know they're not designed for like Barack Obama, you know, or well-intentioned, kind of saint-like figures. You know you need institutions because you're going to get really bad leaders. You know, and there've been plenty of bad leaders in the past in the United States, and even anti-democratic ones. You know this is why you have institutions. You know, can the institutions save us again? You know I don't know the answer to that. You know because in the meantime we've learned that. You know, somehow this attitude has kind of seeped into the Republican Party in a way that we didn't really understand even four years ago. I think it was only after the election and January the 6th that we realized how deep into the Republican Party this kind of anti-democratic tendency has become. But it's also not clear to me to what extent this is tied to the personality of Donald Trump, or whether you know, if Trump passed from the scene, the Republican Party will kind of come to its senses, or whether the rot is so basic now that they just really don't have any adherence to democracy. They just have their project and they want to implement their project by hook or by crook. Whether they can win fair, you know, like I, that's still not clear to me.

Dr. Robinson: 18:38

I think you know, I think what we've learned in the last eight years is that you know, the United States is much more like Venezuela than we could ever have thought about. But there's a very big difference between Venezuela and the United States, which is the military. You know, I think if you look at countries where things have really collapsed, you know, in the way that you know people can think about in this country, it's impossible without the military. You know what happened in Venezuela, what happened in Argentina under Perón, what happened in Zimbabwe. You know it doesn't, you can't do that without the military, and I don't think the military in this country supports President Trump or this kind of project to collapse democracy. So I think, if I step back and I looked at the broader evidence, I think we're probably going to survive.

Shawn: 19:29

Dr Sarah Benesch, chair of the political science department at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee and expert on the American federal judiciary, puts a lot of faith in the courts to be a final bulwark against the authoritarian tendencies of Trump and the Republican Party. Incidentally, she's the other guest to pull the Pollyanna punch.

Dr. Benesh: 19:48

How worried am I? So the first thing that you need to know about me is that I tend toward the Pollyannish. I'm an optimist. I'm a generally happy person. I tend to see the good in people, sometimes to my own detriment. So how worried am I? I am super concerned that if Trump wins, he will do what he says he's going to do, which is be a dictator, at least for the first day.

Dr. Benesh: 20:21

I think there's a lot of damage that a president can do unilaterally, especially when in these super partisan, super polarized times, his party is unlikely to stand in his way, which means, of course, that Congress is unlikely to stand in his way. To the degree that the Democrats retain at least some control of the Senate there, there's a slight check there, but the Supreme Court would have to be relied on also to stand in his way. So I mean I drew at least some hope from the oral arguments in the Trump case about presidential immunity that even Trump's appointees seem to question. First, that premise that the president would have complete immunity over anything he does in office in terms of criminal repercussions. So I think that's a good sign that the court isn't willing to completely lay down for Trump. But I think that's a really scary expectation to have to hold that the Supreme Court will keep its commitment to the Constitution and the constitutional order in a way that will keep us from somehow devolving into authoritarianism. I think they will, but I can be Pollyannish sometimes.

Shawn: 21:46

Dr Benjamin Hett is an historian, specifically the Weimar and Nazi eras of Germany, professor at City University of New York, and author of numerous books, including the Death of Democracy, hitler's Rise to Power and the Downfall of the Weimar Republic and the Nazi Menace. Hitler, churchill, roosevelt, stalin and the Road to War. Dr Hett is worried about political violence and is one of the handful of guests to state that a second Trump presidency could very well be the crossing of the Rubicon leading to authoritarianism in the United States.

Dr. Hett: 22:19

This election this year is about authoritarianism versus democracy Much more starkly, I think, even than 2016 and 2020 were. Because Trump sort of being driven by his own experiences with January 6th and everything has become much more extreme and his rhetoric is now quite unambiguously fascist, and because his followers have sort of sucked up January 6th in a sense, like they've kind of taken that on board, his followers are much more comprehensively fascist, and I almost hate using that word. It always sounds a bit hysterical, but I think it's basically true. The Republicans are I mean, you could change the word but the Republican party has become some kind of like extreme nationalist insurgency at the moment under Trump, and I think that will only start to change if they're beaten again. And so, yes, and this is why I am very much an advocate of you know a popular front, from AOC to Liz Cheney that anyone who doesn't want that mega future you have to set aside we all have to set aside whatever other priorities we might have and work together to beat this, to cross this Rubicon, to use your term, and then we can worry about other stuff later. Then we can go back to happily disagreeing about social spending, about Israel, about you name it.

Dr. Hett: 23:32

But right now we need to beat Trump. If we want to save the planet. We need to beat Trump Because if Trump wins, that's it for global warming. We're doomed. Because, you know, trump has said he just wants to drill, drill, drill. He won't do anything for climate change and this is the last moment I think in the next few years that something maybe can be done. So you know, if Trump wins, we will be threatened with authoritarianism, at least here. Climate change will be a disaster. You know he has to be beaten. That's the only thing that matters this year.

Shawn: 24:05

So some guests, like Dr Hett, do fear a slide into authoritarianism if Trump were to win the presidency again. Others were less sure, but did think that a second Trump presidency, if it didn't lead to democratic collapse, would almost certainly continue or even accelerate the democratic backsliding that we're currently experiencing. One such guest is Dr Sherry Berman, professor of political science at Barnard College, an expert on European history and politics, democracy and fascism, and author of numerous books, including Democracy and Dictatorship in Europe From the Ancine Regime to the Present Day.

Dr. Berman: 24:43

So I certainly don't think we're past the Rubicon in the sense that we are still living in a small d democratic country. The question you're asking is should Trump get elected, you know, will we be on our way to passing that Rubicon? I am not a fortune teller, I'm a political scientist, so I can't answer that question with any certainty. But I'll answer it by referring back to a previous question you asked, which is here's the things that I would look for if I were worried about our democracy decaying even further.

Dr. Berman: 25:16

Attempts to undermine checks and balances in our democratic system. Attempts to further demonize the opposition to the point where taking undemocratic moves against it becomes, somehow or another, seen as legitimate Attempts at executive aggrandizement this is sort of another way of thinking about the undermining of checks and balances, that is to say, a willingness to use the powers of the presidency to do a deep run around the Supreme Court and Congress to enact policies that would otherwise not be able to be enacted. Attempts to undermine faith or further undermine faith in the free press, to take actions against civil society organizations that are seen somehow as unsupportive of the existing regime. These are all things that would make anyone, but perhaps particularly scholars of democracy, who spend a lot of time focusing on these kinds of things, very worried about whether or not our democratic system could survive or at least survive in anything resembling a semi-healthy form.

Shawn: 26:29

A few guests tried to imagine what life might be like in authoritarian United States and how they might respond, behave, resist or survive. Dr Bernard Schlager is an associate professor of historical and cultural studies at the Pacific School of Religion, executive director of the Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies in Religion and co-author of the book Ministry Among God's Queer Folk LGBTQ Pastoral Care. He places hope in institutions, but he has concerns particularly about the electoral system and the potential for political violence, and he's already trying to imagine how to live responsibly as a queer person of faith in a United States without democracy.

Dr. Schlager: 27:11

Yeah, again, from my vantage point, I put more stock these days in hope that the system, that good actors at all levels of the election process in early November will come through. So I have more hope than faith in terms of our American system rather holding firm. As many people say, it was profoundly shaken, you know, in November of 2020. We saw what happened on January 26. I think we I'm frightened by statistics. I read that up to 20% of Americans surveyed believe that violence is okay and even called for it at times, and so I'm worried about 20% is a huge percentage of people Now whether people who say that will you know, step over the line into violence.

Dr. Schlager: 28:04

I think we've seen, quite frankly, january 6, and other places, you know, as Biden mentioned last night in his address, the attacks on American politicians of all different mindsets and parties, and so I'm hoping that it holds, but I fear that it won't hold, and I think what this leads me to, then, is a wonder about what happens next. And how can I, how can we, for those of us who identify as progressive or progressive Christians, progressive people of faith, how do we live and what is our responsibility? How do we affect change? You know, after you know, january 2025?.

Shawn: 28:48

Jason Van Tatenhove, another guest, has concerns about what an authoritarian United States, particularly one under Trump, could do to his life and his family. Jason is an ex-employee of the far-right militia group, the Oath Keepers that were present at the Capitol on January 6, 2021. Jason testified in front of the January 6th House Select Committee about the dangers that right-wing militia groups pose to American democracy, and he's received threats for doing so. He's now a journalist. He runs the Colorado Switchblade sub stack and he's the author of the book Perils of Extremism how I Left the Oath Keepers and why we Should Be Concerned About a Future Civil War. He describes how surreal this moment is.

Jason van Tatenhove: 29:31

I have no doubts that, due to my work with whether it be you know Georgetown Laws Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection, you know the speaking I do on CNN or MSNBC or any of the other news outlets, you know I've certainly spoken my mind to the point. And then my testimony on day seven of the select committees to investigate the attack on the US Capitol. You know I'm sure I'm on those lists with many of my friends and many of my associates that were doing this work and you know at least we'll be in good company, I guess. But it is scary. I mean I've had to talk with I'm trying to figure out how to speak to my daughters about this that you know dad may actually get rounded up if things go a certain way. That's crazy to think about. It's crazy to say out loud and know that we are at that point in history where something that sounds that crazy could be a reality within a matter of months.

Shawn: 30:36

Some guests projected the impact of American democratic collapse onto the rest of the world, imagining how destabilizing it might be. Dr Balint Mayar is a former member of Hungarian parliament, former Hungarian minister of education, founder of the Alliance of Free Democrats, a political party in Hungary, and author of numerous books, including Post-Communist Mafia State the Case of Hungary, drawing similarities and distinctions between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump. He's very worried about global stability under a second Trump presidency.

Dr. Magyar: 31:10

Yes, of course I have some anxiety for that, and what would be the horrible consequences of Donald Trump's presidency second presidency for the situation of the Russia-Ukrainian war? How to defend Ukraine against the aggression of Russia, making Russia more and more proper for a later attack on, let us say, the Baltic states around Moldova or Poland or other states. So it's very important that the European Union should take very seriously this threat, what Russia means for the security of Europe, and I think it's a civilizational clash as well. So it's a fight between the liberal values and freedom of citizens against despotism and autocratic autocracy on the other end. So it's very important From this respect.

Dr. Magyar: 32:16

The presidency of Trump could have disastrous effects for Europe as well, much more resistant to autocratic attempts, but still, the second presidency, a potential second presidency of Trump, would deteriorate very much the situation within the US as well. When I was asked you know what kind of similarities can have between Putin and Trump, ironically I was told that Putin is a mafioso with the mafia you know, the state mafia while Trump is a mafioso, still without a mafia. So the question is that, as he openly says that, how he should like to monopolize his power, to use it for his personal gains, etc. So it's a dangerous thing.

Shawn: 33:26

A few guests suggested solutions or actions that can be taken to avert the worst-case scenario a total slide into authoritarianism. One of those guests is Dr Carol Graham, a senior fellow in the economic studies program at Brookings, a professor at the University of Maryland, scientist at Gallup and author of many books, including the Power of Hope how Well-Being Science Can Save Us from Despair. Dr Graham is another one of the guests that fears that the election of Trump this November would be a crossing of the Rubicon.

Dr. Graham: 34:00

OK, I totally agree with you that Trump not getting elected won't solve the problem, but Trump getting elected will pass the Rubicon Right. That man is capable of doing with radical supporters and the elites around him, who are both incompetent but incredibly manipulative. And I can't even imagine I don't want to. But that said, yes, we have to do a lot more. Some of it's going to be long-term. So, as I said, it's investing in preventive things preventive health, investing in good education, starting at young ages. It's investing in things like socio-emotional skills so that kids can cope with all the challenges coming at them. It's investing in much better civic education than we have.

Dr. Graham: 34:53

A colleague of mine, bob Leighton, has talked so much about debate clubs and how they've gone and how so important they were in high schools before because they taught kids to make arguments that required listening to the other side. Even if you disagree with that, you need to understand what they were saying and what they were talking about. Right, it's just part of civic education. I don't know what the number is. I'm sure you know it, but the amount of people in this country who can't fully define what the Constitution is or what the Declaration of Independence says are large. The people that have to take the citizenship test know a hell of a lot more than the average citizen in the United States, without a doubt. So all those things are going to matter for the long term, in addition to if we continue to deepen our ability to enact policies without them getting blocked or locked in Congress, to enact policies that invest in people and support people who are falling behind, and provide better health care and provide better education for more people. It's going to take a while, but it's kind of a fundamental part of the solution. So part of it is indeed the democracy side of things making sure we have a much more civically educated population than we do and part of it is economic and health side of things, which requires, you know, having people in decent health, having people with jobs that allow them to take care of their families, not get, you know, have access to health care, whatever.

Dr. Graham: 36:36

I think the two go in tandem and they aren't like these two exclusive tracks. They reinforce each other. I mean, the economy needs educated people and democracy needs people who are able to make a living, and, you know, be educated to make a living. And, you know, be educated, care enough to vote, be productive members of society. If you have a huge number of disgruntled people who have no interest in participating in democracy for all the reasons that we, as good citizens, tend to participate in democracy and are happy to, you know, throw out their vote to a nutcase like Trump because it seems to be a pie in the sky solution that's better than what they've got.

Dr. Graham: 37:24

You know you don't get very far with that and we've seen how much damage that already has done to the political system and I think the only way to address it is really the root causes and unfortunately that will take time. But Trump being elected, well, I think that just, I don't want to say makes it impossible in the future. But it would be really hard for us with all the damage that's already been done, both through the other things that I've been talking about over time that have built up, but the damage that would do to us politically would make it, you know, virtually impossible. I think that would make us cross a Rubicon and again, I don't really want to think about what that looks like.

Shawn: 38:04

While each of the guests I interviewed for After America and they aren't all featured here had a different opinion about how bad the state of American democracy is and concern about the potential for total democratic collapse and the depth of the threat that Trump poses in the long term, they all agree that the United States is experiencing democratic erosion, that Trump has accelerated that erosion and that something needs to change and change soon, if we want to stop or reverse the decline.

Shawn: 38:33

And none was completely hopeless.

Shawn: 38:36

If I could sum up some overall theme, some message from the feedback, it would go something like this American democracy is in a very precarious place, while complete authoritarianism is unlikely in the near future, neither is total democracy and democratic backsliding democratic erosion has the momentum and Democratic backsliding Democratic erosion has the momentum.

Shawn: 38:58

Donald Trump poses a threat, but the bigger threats are the transformation of the Republican Party, one of the only two major parties in the United States, to one that despises democracy and democratic values and embraces authoritarianism and authoritarian leaders, and the transformation of the Republican electorate, one that is receptive to disinformation and conspiracy theories, supportive of undemocratic means to ends and willing to engage in political violence. It's not a pretty picture, but it is reality, one that many of us would rather look away from, ignore, avoid, but that, too is a threat to democracy. We have to stay engaged, carry the voice of democracy, and if you ever need a pick-me-up I know I do sometimes I'm going to leave you with a message of hope from, of all people, the person who wrote the book the Next Civil War, outlining potential scenarios that could lead to the collapse of American peace, society and democracy Canadian journalist Stephen Marsh Let me put it to you this way Canadian politics is not in turmoil.

Stephen Marche: 40:03

American politics is in turmoil. The reason for this is not that Canadians are better people than Americans. I know that that's not true. Like no one who meets Americans thinks that the problem with the United States is the people of the United States. Like that is clearly not true. The problem here is systems. The problem here is non-functioning governmental systems that require revision and thought.

Stephen Marche: 40:30

Now, the country that can do that in the world, if there were to be an exception to the patterns that I'm describing, it would be the United States. They have broken the mold many, many times in their history. I mean, when you think about it's very easy to make fun of the United States, especially when you're a foreigner, and it's very easy to call them cruel and so on. If you think what America did after the Second second world war, where it decided that instead of, you know, extracting the wealth from defeated countries the process that had happened in every single war in human history up to that point if, instead of extracting the wealth, the victor were to invest in those countries and put money into them and build them up, that you would build yourself safer, healthier world. Like they did that and it worked. It created I mean it created the germany that is now the bulwark of democracy in the world. It created japan, which is the bulwark of democracy in in asia.

Stephen Marche: 41:34

Like that is not to be taken lightly, like that that's. That was an extraordinary feat to be able to even get to spiritually if you understand what I mean like to be able to do that. And there's one country who did that and that was america. So I, I mean, I do think that if there were a country that were to find its way out of this, it would be America. I think that that hope is. You know, this is a very hard-headed book. This is a book that looks at models and the value of the models and tries to be very clear about everything. And I mean, I think I've earned that little breath of optimism because I've been very, very clear in my thinking in this book and I don't think you can be honest and say that that's not a possibility that Americans, because of their practical spirit and their desire for a better life and their openness, will find a way out. I mean, I so hope that it does.

Shawn: 42:38

All right. Check back next Sunday for another episode of Deep Dive Chat. Soon, folks. Thank you.