Deep Dive with Shawn

Leaving America E9: Spotlight on New Zealand!

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Ever fantasized about leaving America's polarized politics for New Zealand's pristine landscapes? Before you pack your bags for Middle Earth, listen to the unfiltered truth from two expats who took the leap without ever visiting first.

My husband, Pavel, returns and we chat with our friends Alex and Andy, who each moved to New Zealand, and reveal what actually happens when you trade global chaos for Kiwi calm. Their stories expose surprising realities about life in New Zealand – from the genuine shock of walking out of a hospital without paying a cent to the refreshingly straightforward tax system that eliminates the annual stress of filing returns. The conversation tackles everything from employment security and distinctive Kiwi communication styles to the significant challenges of being a 30+ hour flight away from family emergencies.

Beyond the stunning scenery that captured Peter Jackson's imagination lies a functioning democracy where innovative engineering thrives in isolation. The "figure it out" mentality has created a culture that values practical problem-solving over specialization, while also embracing a more relaxed attitude toward perfectionism. Want a perfectly manicured lawn? New Zealanders couldn't care less.

But it's not all smooth sailing in this distant paradise. Alex and Andy candidly address the reality of being on "an island at the bottom of the Pacific" – the reduced availability of international products (particularly Mexican food), the higher-than-expected cost of living, and the genuine isolation that comes with this geographic remoteness.

Whether you're seriously considering a move abroad or just curious about alternative living arrangements in uncertain times, this episode offers practical insights and unexpected perspectives on finding your place in a country that values calm over chaos and community over culture wars. 

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Shawn:

Welcome to Leaving America, the podcast where we ask big questions about new beginnings, second chances and what it really means to start over somewhere else. Last week we introduced you to some English-speaking countries that are great options if you're looking to move abroad. Among them was New Zealand. For years, new Zealand has hovered near the top of every where should I move list, especially for those disillusioned by political polarization, economic stability or just the general noise of American life. It's small, it's quiet, it's green and, yes, they filmed the Lord of the Rings there.

Shawn:

But under the surface, new Zealand is more than just Middle Earth. It's a sovereign nation with strict immigration rules, a delicate housing market and a strong sense of national identity. That takes some real work to earn your place in. So in today's episode, my husband Pavel returns and we're going to be talking to two of our friends that made the move to New Zealand, one from the United States and one from Luxembourg, about their move, what surprised them about New Zealand, how they've settled in and why they probably wouldn't consider leaving. Hey, pavel, welcome back. Hi, Shawn, happy birthday week.

Pavel:

Oh, thank you.

Shawn:

How does it feel to be in your 30s now?

Pavel:

It feels great. It feels like I have all this energy.

Shawn:

It feels like I'm on top of the world Feels like Benjamin Button going back in time.

Pavel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. I'm not gonna lie about having an absolutely great 30s of my life in the country that we're going to be talking about today.

Shawn:

Yep, new Zealand, which is where we met and it's where you met the people, our friends that we interviewed for this episode Alex and Andy. You met them both at work right.

Pavel:

Yeah, I met Alex and Andy for work and Andy was actually my lead on the very first project where I had to design a desk for a private jet.

Shawn:

A what?

Pavel:

A desk.

Shawn:

Oh.

Andy:

Yeah.

Pavel:

It was probably the least exciting thing on that airplane, but that desk had to fit something Apple related. Like some device, it was a small desk but it had a chair.

Shawn:

Was the chair fixed in place? Yes, we haven't been back to New Zealand since when were we last there? 2019, just before COVID oh right, that's right, right before COVID, because it was that December, yep, and we're going back this December for the month. What are you most looking forward to?

Pavel:

Well, I look forward to see Alex and Andy in person. Yeah, and I look forward to visiting some of my favorite places. And I look forward to visiting some of my favorite places and I look forward to seeing some other wonderful friends that I was lucky to make in Auckland, new, zealand, over the years that I lived there but, like a lot of them, don't live in Auckland anymore.

Pavel:

I know that's what's going to make it a little bit difficult but at the same time it will provide more opportunities for us to travel Right yeah To see the Taspin sea and the ocean and hopefully visit Queenstown and see the Glenorchy with Mount Ernst Law and just all these scenic places. We have to start planning that.

Shawn:

Oh yeah, we're your hosts, pavel and Shawn, and if your idea of a better life includes geothermal spas, functioning health care, conservation and political restraint, you're absolutely in the right place To stay updated on the latest episodes. Follow, like and share. Leaving America on the Deep Dive with Shawn podcast feed. Wherever you get your podcasts, podcasts. And if you've relocated to Aotearoa and can finally sleep without checking the news at 2 am, or if you just want to know how to pronounce Whangarei or Whakapapa, we want to hear from you. Email us at deepdivewithshawn at gmailcom.

Pavel:

Okay, let's pack your bags. It's time to see some kiwi birds and kiwis and lots of sunscreen, because the sun is quite brutal in New Zealand. This is Living America.

Shawn:

Alex, Andy, thanks for being here. How are you?

Alex:

Yeah, we're good. Good, it's a nice wet sunny.

Andy:

No, it's not sunny nice, wet, sunny, cloudy, dark do you know where you?

Shawn:

are no, but you're. You're in new zealand, so you're heading into your winter as we're heading into our summer.

Alex:

Yeah yep, that's right was the, the summer nice, the summer was good, very hot.

Andy:

Very dry.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy always tries to grow some veggies every year, and I think this year was a little bit tough to keep things alive. But the chilies are still going, so that's good. But no luck with any tomatoes or anything like that, so we'll have to try again next year.

Pavel:

What do you mean? The chillies are still growing. They're still growing, yeah, they're still on little plants.

Alex:

You have to go get some.

Andy:

Yeah, I think there are probably 30 of them out there that are just bright red.

Alex:

Yeah.

Andy:

I need to pick today.

Alex:

And then you may go and make some chili sauce after that. It's a little side hustle.

Shawn:

When I first started growing things, I found that I would grow, I would get really into the things that would take off like cucumbers or whatever. And then I realized, like I don't actually really like cucumbers, it's just that they just grow like a weed. We did that with bok choy.

Alex:

Bok choy grows great here I hate bok choy. What else can we make out of it?

Shawn:

like soup, or let's start here. Maybe you can tell us where you're from, but also why you chose to move away and why you chose new zealand yeah, yeah for sure.

Alex:

Um, so probably from my accent you can tell that I'm not from anywhere that really someone can decipher. But yeah, I'm originally from Luxembourg. But you know, growing up we've kind of moved all over the place really with my parents for my dad's work and stuff, so hence why my accent probably has picked up on various places. But yeah, I came to New Zealand pretty much a long time ago now but for my studies basically, and I wanted to, you know, study abroad, and at the time my parents were living in the Philippines and I think they were thinking of moving to Thailand in a couple of years after that. So I figured, you know, new Zealand is not the furthest away from there. My other options, I think, would have been Canada or England, but I just kind of wanted to try something new and different. And why not? And definitely not Australia, because they have crocodiles and snakes and spiders over there. So New Zealand was a lot better with little kiwi birds, harmless kiwi birds.

Pavel:

And have you ever been to New Zealand before?

Alex:

No, no, never. It was kind of. You know, I've heard good things about it. I've had a couple of teachers and friends in my high school that were from New Zealand and you know they've only ever raved about it. I even played touch rugby in high school because of one of my coaches was from New Zealand. So you know, I kind of got a little bit of hints of the culture and what they do here. A course called mechatronics I thought you know, I wanted to do engineering, but I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. So mechatronics was a good you know thing mix of mechanical, electrical and software. So I thought that was going to be quite neat. So yeah, that's. So. I came here just with a 23 kilo suitcase and figured it out you know, I um so I've interviewed like 20 experts and expats.

Shawn:

They all say you should always visit a place first before you move there.

Alex:

Yeah, you're telling all the listeners that that is uh.

Shawn:

There are other routes to go here yeah, I think I mean it was.

Alex:

It was the same for andy. You actually also came here without being here before yeah um both of us just were. Inspired well.

Andy:

So I I grew up in arkansas, went to university in arkansas. When I was doing that I got an engineer as well. I got a job as an intern at a place that did aircraft work interiors of aircraft and then got hired on after college and then after a while, if you're in that line of work, you end up in Seattle. So I moved to Seattle doing the same kind of stuff. I was there for five years and then found that there was a place in New Zealand doing the same thing and they were looking for exactly what I did. So I met the guys. They came to Seattle quite often for to work with Boeing on things. I met him up there, hit it off really well.

Andy:

At the same time I had been really getting into fly to the Concords and I'm big music fan, big comedy fan. So you know that particular band hit home with me real quite a bit. But interviewed with the guys up in seattle, they said, um, you know, we'll be in touch. And then maybe a month or two later they came back and made me an offer and I had never. I'd traveled out of the us a bit, but nothing like huge. I'd been to j, I'd been to Mexico and you know, the Caribbean and all that, just kind of decided like why not?

Alex:

I mean, I had what are you going to lose?

Andy:

Yeah. So I moved straight to Christchurch right exactly when the earthquake started and then moved up to Auckland about a year after that with the same job, and I've been in Auckland ever since.

Andy:

So, it was a totally blind, you know, coming in blind. I was not really into Christchurch. Besides the shaking, it was just kind of a it's a bit slower pace and you know not a lot of people wanted to socialize Not that I'm a big socialite, know not a lot of people wanted to socialize not that I'm a big socialite but a lot of people wanted to socialize there because of the earthquakes and everyone was pretty stressed out. But then I moved to Auckland and it was a lot like Seattle, but warmer and safer and just nicer in general, and haven't even thought about leaving. Really it's been good.

Alex:

I moved here 2009, and then you moved here 2010 by Garcia Christchurch first, yeah.

Pavel:

Maybe because New Zealand is so far away. That's why you know, if some of your experts are Shawn saying that you should visit the country before moving there. With New Zealand, it will be a little pricey to go to visit and go back and then like, oh yeah.

Andy:

Yeah, I mean before, probably 2005 or 2006,. I had never even thought about New Zealand, really Didn't really come up in my life at all.

Shawn:

A lot of people say about New Zealand and Pablo, you've said this as well that it can in a way feel like you're on an island. I mean, I guess you are right, but it's a gigantic, there are two gigantic islands, right that it can kind of give you island fever or cabin fever. Do you guys experience that?

Alex:

I mean I think about it all the time because you know I work at, you know the regional I mean the national airline at the moment and you know to just go to a different country you have to fly at least three hours pretty much. You know, especially coming from Europe where you just drive anywhere. You know half an hour you're in France where half an hour you're in France Growing up we would just go to the Belgian coast for lunch, sometimes on the weekends, just because we wanted mussel and fries, and so the concept of having to go onto a plane just to go to a different country is quite different, like a different mentality for me.

Andy:

I've got a globe, a relatively old globe, but I had it situated to where you could just see new zealand and then it's just you know, ocean everywhere around it. I had to move it because it was freaking me out like I'm so far away from everything down here. Uh, just, you kind of want to put on the blinders and just say, like this is, this is the world that I live in.

Alex:

I don't have to, I don't want to think too much about how far away I am from everything in the all in that sense has also been a blessing, because you know you seem to be a little bit in your bubble here. You know you can easily shut off the rest of the world, whether it's a good or bad thing.

Andy:

But I think it's pretty good. Usually it's a good thing.

Alex:

You know, same with even. You know covid and things like that. You know, always a little bit late to get everything here. Uh, you know, including movies. You know movies that have been out in the cinemas everywhere else. Uh, come out here a bit later, but it's all right.

Shawn:

Yeah, it's easy, easy living, very laid back and we've really enjoyed it when you moved out there, did you intend to stay out there as long as you did? Alex, you said that you had just brought essentially one bag, which I guess, like if you're making a move, that big air travel to get there, you're probably, unless you're, you know, taking a shipping container, you're taking a small amount of your things and I guess my circumstances were a little bit different because I didn't really have anything of my own at that time.

Alex:

You know I was still living with my folks and everything. So it was fairly easy from that sense that, you know, I just grabbed all my belongings, you know, clothes, especially depending on whatever the season was, and then the rest, you know I could live in student accommodation and everything, and so they have a good support network. So it was actually really easy in that sense to set yourself up. You know it's different. I guess if you're working and you have things and cats and things like that, you know to move.

Andy:

For me. I was really lucky because I had the job in the job moved me down here, so they, they moved all whatever I wanted to pack into a container. But I also had a partner at the time who was did all the work, really organizing it all and figuring out because I had to come down here and start work. So that was all sort of out of my hands mainly, like I didn't, I didn't. Like I said, I was very, very lucky to just have a lot of help from my partner and the job moving me doing all the complicated stuff we did. We had two cats and they both wanted to come down too. So we, we, uh, organized that and that was probably the the hardest thing, because I was here for like six months just me, uh. And then the cats turned up but they had to go into quarantine I can't even remember how long it was, but it seemed like ages. So I'd go out and visit the cats and come back home without the cats.

Alex:

It was kind of kind of hard like I think they also had to do lots of vaccinations and shots yeah travel thing, because you know New Zealand is so strict with biosecurity and things like that, you know, which is also a good thing because we have so many native animals and plants and things here, but but again, I was lucky I didn't, I didn't have to do that myself, that was taken care of, yeah.

Andy:

So it was kind of a hospital, not hospital pass. What's the opposite of a hospital pass, a pass for me? I just I just came down, I just turned up and then finding a house and everything.

Alex:

How was that that?

Andy:

That was not too hard really. In Christchurch it was pretty easy to find a place.

Shawn:

Abel, you've made the move twice internationally, and I think both times you did. You also just went with a couple bags, right?

Pavel:

Yeah, just like Alex. When I moved to New Zealand I also didn't have that much, so it was not that dramatic or traumatic. Yeah, so most important clothes fit in one suitcase, and I think there was one more kind of like a duffel bag, which which was enough you have everything you need here as well.

Alex:

You know, it's not like we're going to a, you know, a country that doesn't have all the right amenities and everything like that. But that does remind me of a funny story, because I did move to the Netherlands. Um, as well, I live there for a bit and, um, you know, the Dutch people don't know what it is in their water or how much milk they drink, but they're all very tall people and me being relatively average, maybe on the shorter side, um, things didn't quite fit me. I had to buy. I could buy children's stuff, which was great because it was a bit cheaper and everything. But you know, even the benchtop height in the kitchen was higher. You know, the toilet is higher, everything is higher, like in the mirror in the bathroom of my apartment I could only see this part of my face, because everything is generally higher. I thought that was pretty funny. But again, I could still find things.

Shawn:

I just had to look around a little bit more yeah so I'm guessing, when you first moved there, your intent was not to stay there maybe as long as you have, I guess. I'm wondering how that came about and if you plan on staying there kind of in perpetuity or if you're thinking about maybe going somewhere else.

Alex:

Yeah, I guess for me it was the studies. So you know, it had a timeline there, but then I really enjoyed it and then I decided to also do further studies and everything and then actually finding a work. I thought would be quite good to at least have that under my belt before I even went anywhere else. And so the good thing we know with the university, they have career fairs and everything, and so then I found altitude pretty much from the careers fair. Paavo, I don't know Jamie Lamb, he, he was there, so he gave me his card and everything, and so, yes, I started working there straight after university. And now, you know, after a couple of years, you know me and Andy, we've met and we set up, you know, a life here. Now We've got more cats and everything. We have a house. So I don't know, I don't think we're thinking of leaving anytime soon, but who knows?

Andy:

I think mainly it comes up when when we say maybe we should leave is because we're in traffic. We're like this fucking traffic language oh, is this? No, this is for kids, oh okay, Listen, kids.

Pavel:

the traffic here is terrible sometimes yeah but it's not any better here. No, it's not, and that's the thing.

Alex:

Yeah, you know in relative terms what are we really? Complaining about yeah.

Pavel:

I mean, you have more narrow streets and you don't have the rules. I, I think I don't think you have rules in auckland that every house has to have like a parking, dedicated parking spot, right, so everyone is just parks on the road, yeah, right yeah, yeah so that's the and I think I guess the popular, especially in auckland.

Alex:

I probably cannot speak for the rest of the country, but you know the population is increasing quite exponentially because this is also where all the jobs are and it's very international and everything. So I do feel like the maybe city planning or road planning here isn't quite the infrastructure isn't quite set up for maybe that many people Like. To be honest, during during covid, it was a breeze driving around, there was a few people out and everything worked and we're like, I think this is what it was supposed to be for.

Alex:

Um and now, yeah, just you know, especially during peak traffic and whatnot, it's quite annoying really to get around. But you know, we take the bus as much as we can. You know if we, if we do want to go out for dinner or whatnot. You know, and oftentimes you know, we live in an area where, just around the corner, we have all the shops and the cafes and sometimes we've spent most of the weekend not even using the car, which is quite nice. We just try to walk everywhere.

Andy:

I was in Bangalore, india, earlier this year and there are no rules and it actually flowed pretty good with zero rules complete anarchy on the streets, cars everywhere, everything always moving.

Shawn:

It was amazing that's how I felt in rome, too. I was like it felt like there were no rules at all to the driving but like it, it worked really well yeah it was like kind of like ants or like birds

Shawn:

like it just somehow worked but so, alex, you made me think about something when you said you know everything's kind of in Auckland, and I think there is. I don't know if this is a challenge or maybe you know like a curse or a blessing in smaller countries, but it is absolutely true that in Auckland and I guess, when I say this as a challenge, I don't know if there's like an urban planning challenge or you know if this is something that will become a problem but in new zealand most of urban life really revolves around auckland to some degree, wellington, if you're like working for government or christ church, but the rest of the country is quiet and I don't want to say undeveloped, because it's not like that, but it is.

Shawn:

it definitely is a rural vibe that you don't experience in the same way in larger countries, I think yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex:

And I think yeah, obviously depending on the job, because of course I don't want to be commuting that much either. I always think, you know, it would be quite nice sometimes to live rurally fresh air and everything. He's not so much of a fan because he grew up rural, so I think he prefers the city life now. But I just couldn't do the commutes. You know I don't want to be wasting my time in a car or on, you know, public transport. If it's there, I'd rather just be closer to work and get that over with and everything. So I think where we got our house is a really sweet spot. You know it's close enough to everything.

Shawn:

Are you familiar with the Green Bay Blackhouse Bay area?

Alex:

Yeah, it's kind of across the other side of the freeway here it's like the west, I haven't been there too much. Yeah, I think the most we've done on that side is to visit Pavel back in the day.

Shawn:

Do you consider a place like that to be not urban enough?

Alex:

I think the main thing we like is having a little hustling and bustling like town center, let's say that we can go to walking where they have cafes and little cute shops and things like that, not that we go out all the time or anything, but just having that there and having a little bit of an atmosphere.

Alex:

We used to live in ponsonby, um, I'm not sure if you're familiar with that area, but it's kind of more boutique shops and it has a few pubs and restaurants and there was always something going on and it was quite neat to be able to just walk everywhere and just go, even if we just walk up and down the street. You know, go for a long one hour walk or whatnot? Just people watching and watch the street. You know, go for a long one hour walk, or whatnot? Just people watching and watch the world go by and everything. We quite enjoyed that. So I think maybe if we were in blockhouse bay or something I don't know if there is a similar sort of little town center or something like that, um, but you know, just having to hop in a car to go anywhere really is not really something that we would like that much, which is why we chose where we were.

Shawn:

You just want to know that if you die, it's going to take somebody less than a month to find your body.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy:

That's the main goal, yeah.

Shawn:

I think this is probably I don't know, I don't know if this is an American thing, but I think that, like in the Western world, when we move to other places that are considered part of the Western world, so like if an American moves to Canada or moves to like Australia or New Zealand, even maybe to Europe, we kind of take for granted that because we share so much similarity in the way that we structure our lives that you wouldn't experience culture shock. But I know, even going to Canada, there are things that I'm, you know, a little bit surprised by, or at least used to be a little bit surprised by, and that's just an hour and a half away from us. What kind of culture shock did you experience coming from, I guess, the places that you came from into New Zealand?

Andy:

I think I would probably. The first thing that comes to mind is the lack of Mexican food. That was that was disturbing. And there's also very little Greek food, but people don't complain about that.

Alex:

But it is very international and that's again, you know, not saying that much you know for maybe for the rest of the country, but definitely in Auckland Very international. You walk out the door and you don't really know where you are sometimes because you see people from all sorts of parts of the world and so we do have a plethora of different types of restaurants around, even things like a Filipino restaurant that I wouldn't have seen anywhere else in the world, really, except the Philippines for the Philippines, except the Philippines.

Alex:

And here, I guess, so I thought that's always very neat. I thought it was real fun getting used to the slang and eventually being able to discern different versions of the New Zealand accent depending on south or north island yeah, I think I finally I mean my some of my friends might murder me, but I finally started to see the differences also between australian and australian yeah yeah I always thought the kiwi accent was much more difficult for me to understand than the australian yeah, I don't know

Andy:

sometimes the australian accent is so twangy and strong that it's almost southern us. It's almost like an arkansas accent for me.

Shawn:

Really get going I was legit in some circumstances in new zealand where I was like I am so sorry, what?

Alex:

and then I have to say it three or four times, I still don't understand what you're saying.

Andy:

That happens to me once a week probably. What?

Alex:

Do you speak English?

Andy:

Or a lot of people don't understand what I'm saying because they're not expecting an American accent and so they have to calculate what is it that this person just accent, and so you know they have to, like, calculate. What is it that this person just said?

Alex:

And you mumble.

Shawn:

It's not your accent, you're just a mumbler.

Pavel:

It was very clear to me that you were American when I started at Altitude. That's because I was wearing my American flag suit and you're the only one I could actually understand, because for the first few months or the first week when I was in the first team meeting, I was so stressed out because I could not understand anything. Everybody was saying, especially with like slang or like you know oh, that's mean, I'm like what, who's mean?

Shawn:

yeah, yeah, yeah I remember the first time I heard that like you know something as, and I was like as what?

Alex:

yeah, like, this is lazy or or or s a s s sweet ass yes, yeah, I just walked around thanking everyone.

Shawn:

Oh, thank you, yeah, yeah I don't get that really as much in the states there's a comedian here.

Andy:

I'm gonna butcher what exactly he said, but his name's Guy Montgomery and he has this story. Or he tells the story about how, growing up as a Kiwi, you hear a British accent and you think that's going to be an educational, authoritative thing, and you hear an American accent and you think that's going to be entertainment, like a joke or a movie star thing. That you're going to be a entertainment like a joke or a like movie star thing that you're gonna. The information that you're getting is either going to be instructional or entertainment, depending on which accent it is oh, that's a very interesting thought.

Pavel:

I never thought about it. That is true, and the people with british accent like, oh, these are very cultural, yeah this guy knows what he's talking about yeah what did you think, posh, having lived in russia?

Shawn:

what kind of culture shock do you think you experienced in new zealand?

Pavel:

I think people were less politically correct oh yeah because in the us, like you know, you cannot say so many things or cannot joke about so many things. So yeah, in in new zealand when I worked, like oh, I'm like, oh boy, those people swear and yeah, that's true but it was at the same time it was.

Pavel:

It didn't feel aggressive or I didn't feel too uncomfortable about it. But when I moved to the US and started working in a major corporation, I became very close. I wasn't comfortable with joking with people, I was filtering a lot more and it was kind of very sad in a way. Only recently I started to be a little bit more joking around and stuff. But yeah, it's just a much more limited culture but it's the most free, more limited, you know, culture yeah.

Andy:

But it's the most free country in the world Exactly.

Pavel:

And yeah, that's the dream that is falling apart.

Andy:

I had very similar reactions when we would have a meeting with this major aircraft manufacturer that's based in the US. With this major aircraft manufacturer that's based in the US, we'd have, you know, the guys over from Seattle or whatever, for instance, and the Kiwis would be asking them questions about, like the election, and you know this person who's somehow won the election.

Andy:

And I'm like guys, we don't talk about these things in in work in work things you like, you can't you can't do it because you don't know what that other person is thinking yeah, but even things like you know on the radio here people swear yeah, true you know, oh yeah and the tv station is like the, the uh nz1, what's it? Called tv nz, tv nz like they show full-blown uh, you know foul language and adult situations that you'd never see on nbc that's why I have acorn tv.

Shawn:

I'm looking for the swearing and the nudity. I am actually kind of surprised, though it seems like almost every country except the United States you can readily hear like fuck dropped into a TV to a TV show. This is a good point to bring up because I did notice, just traveling in general, not specific to you know, being in New Zealand but I did become aware of how much our American experience has informed how we think about not just what is politically correct or what is appropriate, but that we project that onto other places as well. In New Zealand sometimes I truly was people just seemed a little bit more raw and they would talk about things you know, as you're saying, that I would never and I would find myself being like you can't.

Alex:

You can't say that.

Andy:

Yes, I travel to the US a couple of times a year with work people to do work things and with the younger guys I have to tell them like hey, you gotta dial back the cursing and stuff, because these people are uh fucking insane.

Shawn:

They will turn on you very fast, too sensitive yeah, maybe what are some of the things that you maybe weren't expecting but were pleasant surprises or that you found to be really rewarding living in another country, specifically New Zealand?

Andy:

I actually thought about this one quite a bit, the thing that I mean it took probably 12, 13 years, but I eventually needed to go to the hospital and stay overnight.

Citizen Remote Ad:

And it was like I'm fine, don't worry, Give us all the details.

Andy:

I'm fine, don't worry. But I went in. I always knew like, yes, it's socialized health care and I know that my taxes are very high. But you know, I hadn't actually gone through the process. So I go to my GP. He says you need to go to the hospital now. And so I go to my GP. He says you need to go to the hospital now. And so I go to the hospital. I was sitting there maybe 45 minutes and they ushered me into an area with a bed. They did the things they needed to do. I got up the next morning they checked me out. They're like yeah, you're all right, you can go home. And so I got all my stuff and I was walking out and I was like, okay, where do I pay? Are you just going to send me the bill? Like how does that work? And they looked at me like what the hell are you talking?

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about.

Andy:

Go home. You're done, this is it. Get better, you don't pay, just get better, Like okay, it's amazing.

Alex:

You're mentally preparing for 15,000. Yeah.

Andy:

So you don't have to you know if you're sick, you don't have to go broke and like, start this terrible chain of events that leads you to be in big trouble financially. You just go in, they treat you and you go home.

Alex:

They even validate your parking free parking.

Andy:

That's true. That's the thing that she's the most. Yeah Cause I cause I? Because I went in to give him an overnight bag. And to laugh at me.

Alex:

And yeah, no, but you know, I had to pay for parking and then I left, which is fine, and I'm like oh, you better check, because your car is going to be there for all night and everything. There must be a limit, probably. But then he said no, they validated it, Not his fault of course for being there, so it was quite surprising pleasantly.

Andy:

The other thing I think is I think you would agree the engineering field here they're isolated and they're used to making things work and figuring things out themselves. Things work and figuring things out themselves and, like you, see huge major player companies like, uh, rocket lab because of that. But they, they are real scrappy, they, they have a very broad knowledge base of how to do everything. I see it every day in my job, yeah the guys in my figure it out where I work are like I I'm like how do you know all this?

Andy:

but they just absorb everything and and can just, are willing to try whatever. Like it's quite impressive the the sort of um gung-ho attitude of like let's figure it out.

Alex:

Yeah, it's a lot yeah, because I guess you don't have all the resources necessarily at your fingertips.

Andy:

We can't hire a guy in a week to do this thing. We'll just figure it out.

Shawn:

There is something to this just figure it out thing which I also think comes from being on an island, kind of the middle, well, the bottom of the Pacific right and having limited access to a lot of things. But I noticed this when I was in New Zealand as well. But I noticed this when I was in New Zealand as well. I've noticed this when I was in Hawaii as well, and there's almost a romanticism to it which I think we used to have in the United States and we used to value that, which is make something last as long as you can and continue to fix it. And however you got to fix it to make it work, you do that and we kind of respected that. And I think somewhere along the line we became so commodified that we almost became something to scorn, like if somebody had an old car, that they were just you know they would continue to fix so that it would run became something to judge and so like why not?

Shawn:

get a new car and there was something being in New Zealand seeing that lifestyle. It's not. It's not a lesser lifestyle. It just seems like there's still a certain amount of respect and dignity in figuring out how to make things work that we seem to have lost in the States.

Alex:

Yeah, no, I think, yeah, yeah, I feel like that as well. You don't have to always buy new anything. Make something last.

Pavel:

Your yard doesn't have to be perfect as well, right, right?

Alex:

it's a work in progress yeah everything is a work in progress. It will never be done.

Pavel:

Yeah, because here sometimes it's like a pure, like neighborhood pressure, like somebody's having like all this uh, perfectly manicured lawns and everything. And here's our little, you know, dry patch of grass.

Alex:

Yeah, and I like that, yeah, I like that natural aspect.

Pavel:

You know it's, it's clean, it's like orderly, it's not. You know, green picture perfect, but you know it's, it's, it's comfortable, it's natural.

Andy:

I lived in this house in Fayetteville and Arkansas for maybe six months or so. The reason I left was because the guy who owned the house he was a travel nurse and he was somewhere else, so we were renting this house from him. It had a magnolia tree in the front and he was very, very strict about you got to pick up the leaves from the magnolia tree when they fall and I was like, yeah, whatever, cool, yeah sure, and then I would get calls from him about the tree. So he had some like snitch tree snitch in the neighborhood saying that we weren't picking up the the leaves on the tree.

Pavel:

And we have a magnolia tree out in our berm here and I just let the leaves fall, man, yeah it's not that bad that guy can't hurt me anymore yeah, no, but when they flower, yeah, when they just flower for like a day or two and then everything drops and it's like it goes like one day it's the most beautiful thing on the planet and the next day it's the ugliest thing you've ever seen I will say this one doesn't seem to lose its leaves.

Andy:

Yeah, this one's actually pretty nice.

Alex:

He's got lots of little flowers randomly. I don't know when he's supposed to be blooming, but he's been pretty good yeah.

Shawn:

He's also got a gender, nigel. Let's talk about taxes a little bit. We don't have to go into too many specifics, but the United States is one of just a handful I think it might be just one of two countries the other being Eritrea on the planet that has a universal tax on its citizens, but there are thresholds to like an income and there are certain ways that you can. Reciprocal taxes can be canceled, but I'm just wondering how you found the tax situation, being an American citizen and also, you know, earning an income in New Zealand.

Andy:

First of all those damn Eritreans. I know I can't believe it. So what is the tax rate for um? 33 percent 33, 30, I try not to think about it it's um it's bracketed.

Alex:

So yeah, so from from zero. If you earn from zero to this amount, it's this percentage percentage. And then it kind of bracketed. So not the whole thing is the higher amount if you earn well, but it's all kind of automatic Like they take it out of your pay slip every time it's called pay as you earn.

Andy:

It's really good because they make you not think about it very much, because you don't have to do a tax return every year. You don't have to figure out like where are my receipts? Unless you're a business, you know you're as a regular person, it's just all taken care of. They know how much tax you owe. You don't have to tell them and then they actually already know and they're like aha, we got you. We actually know it's this much that you. That whole stupid process in the us doesn't happen here. They just know how much you owe because they know how much you make. It blows my mind now that you have to do so much stressful work to you know. Here's what I think I made and here's what I think I made and here's what I think I owe. Please don't throw me in jail.

Shawn:

We should put a fine point on that. What you're saying is you don't file a tax return in New Zealand for the country of New Zealand. They take care of all that for you and you never really even see that process.

Andy:

Yeah, yeah, you, it is um. If you for some reason worked overtime or if you took time off without pay, they adjust it because they know what you made.

Alex:

I think maybe once a year, I kind of remember they might just send you a thing to confirm Like, hey, we think that you may have overpaid because of this, and that. Here's a credit note or the other way, but it's never heaps or anything, and it is in unusual circumstances when you have like odd overtimes or something that is not the usual process.

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But again, it's very easy.

Alex:

You just say OK, thanks, you handle it like that.

Andy:

The taxes on investment not that I know anything about this, but I've heard the taxes on investment income. Our investments in general are insane, where you have to actually pay the tax, not when you sell it like you do in the us. You know you pay tax on what you've made, but here instead it's uh, like when you buy it you have to pay taxes every year on how much you have in there. They're right that might not be right now.

Andy:

Everything I said cut that. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Yeah, I don't have enough money to be investing in stocks, but uh, that's what I've heard it's. It's some kind of. It's different. There's no capital gains tax here, so if sell a house, you don't pay a tax on that profit. But there is something where you buy stock and you have to pay the tax then instead of later.

Andy:

This is pointless. Don't listen to me, I could talk about it. Let's talk about brain surgery now, because that's about, as I know, about, the same amount of that.

Shawn:

That was your one night hospital stay.

Andy:

Yeah, let me do it myself. That's part of the socialized medicine.

Shawn:

amount of that is that, and that's that was your one night hospital stay, yeah yeah, yeah, they let me do it myself.

Andy:

That's part of the uh socialized medicine.

Shawn:

You have to actually do your own I hear brain surgery is supposed to be painless oh nice well assuming they numb the whole cutting into your skull part except the drilling part.

Andy:

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah I do feel like our taxes probably go to worthwhile things, because we don't have a big weapons industry or our defense industry is probably not the biggest recipient of tax dollars and our roads are decent.

Alex:

Yeah, okay.

Andy:

And the kids aren't stupid, so that must be helping from the tax money.

Alex:

Yeah, I think probably one other difference, big difference here I would say, is just employment safety. I suppose Employment safety you cannot just get fired on the spot like you see on TV in American shows. I don't have personal obviously know obviously examples there I do.

Andy:

Yeah, yeah, he does. I mean, I didn't get fired, but you know, working in the US. You can be in a quote right-to-work state like Arkansas. There was a downturn in the economy and every week we had an all-hands meeting and they would announce here are the names of the people who are being laid off today and that's when you would find out that you were laid off. You can't really do that here, just kind of comforting.

Alex:

Yeah, it goes both ways, because then you know if you do have, let's say, someone who might be underperforming or not pulling their weight, to try to get rid of them is a little bit more challenging. You know, you have to probably go to a managed work sort of scheme where they have to do daily check-ins or reporting on what they're doing and stuff like that. So you really have to get to a point where you have a real like valid reason that is measurable, you know to then, such a capitalist over here no, I'm just saying how it is.

Alex:

I mean, luckily we haven't had to do that.

Pavel:

You know, I wasn't part of any of that, but you know, that's from what I've heard I just remembered also that when I moved to new zealand and only worked like half a year of a calendar year, I got some refund from taxes. Yeah, and I I never felt stressed about you know how do we file what if, if we're gonna file something incorrectly, you know. Or I was like a year ago or something, I read all these rules about the ira and then I looked at my work you know the 401k and I'm like the majority, the most of my money was an IRA and I'm like I was stressing for like a whole day until I called. I was thinking like I went over the limit or something. You know, do I have to pay like a ginormous amount of money because, you know, I mismanaged something? So yeah, there's definitely a lot of pressure here about the you know taxes and doctor bills and stuff.

Shawn:

And it is unfriendly, like the approach really is almost like you've done something wrong yeah yeah yeah, we got fault we got uh, when was this? A couple years ago, we got something from the irs in the mail saying they had looked at our 2019 taxes. So like five years earlier, and they found some problem and we owed two thousand dollars and we had 10 days to pay it or we were like fined or something, and they included the mail time.

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So it took like five or six days.

Shawn:

At that point you have no time to appeal. There's no one to call like. You just have to pay, right yeah now I'm like any day another letter from the irs could yeah, 2019.

Alex:

I don't remember what I was doing back then.

Shawn:

I can't fight it or remember, you know how much I owe you, Just tell me yeah yeah, I am the last person on the planet that is technically savvy enough to know exactly what I need to give you. Anyway, so if somebody were interested in moving to New Zealand, or they were considering New Zealand, given the fact that you've all done that, what advice would you give to them in preparing to New Zealand? Or they were considering New Zealand, given the fact that you've all done that, what advice would you give to them in preparing to do that?

Alex:

Go for it. You know, obviously nowadays, also with YouTube and all that, you can watch videos. You know, I mean even you before your India trip. You know you watch lots of YouTube videos on how to get around, what to look out for, which places to avoid and this and that.

Andy:

So I think nowadays it's a lot easier to do your research yeah, true before you go there, not so much back then before, but now I think back in the early 1900s when I on a boat for a week goodness, oh yeah, go for it.

Alex:

I think I mean it.

Andy:

I was quite lucky in all of my circumstances. It was all kind of laid out for me and all that. So it's easy for me to say, just do it. But I, um, looking back, I've probably spent all the money I had, you know, dealing with a house and an apartment that were still in the U? S, and I couldn't actually manage. Um, if, if I would say anything, I'd be like seriously think about whether or not you want to move and then whether or not you want to maintain or be responsible for a home in the us that you don't live in and or near to or nearby enough for you know.

Alex:

Think about the assets you have there and whether or not it's really worth dealing with them yeah, I guess it also depends, because I don't know how long you were expecting to stay in new zealand. I guess you didn't really touch upon that. But that also obviously is a factor. You know, if you think you're only going to go for a few years and come back, then you know, of course don't get rid of your house or whatnot. But if you are open-ended, let's say, and you don't see yourself going back anytime soon, then that's something that would take out a lot of the stress and, you know, lucky for both of us, you know we don't have kids or anything. I think that's also obviously a big factor that you have to consider. Um, you know, we have friends who've, you know, even here worried about schooling zones and where to live and how the kids are going to get to school and things like that. But you know we don't have to.

Andy:

So leave your kids, sell your house.

Alex:

Just bring the cats Just take the cats.

Shawn:

Do you speak any Maori? I'm struggling with.

Andy:

English still.

Alex:

I feel a bit bad. I know we know a few words here and there, but they're trying really hard here to make sure Maori is still included On the signs. If you take public transport they always announce the next station first in Maori and then in English and everything. So you pick up things here and there and you can take lessons. I've got a friend who's doing maori lessons and every night or whatnot, they have some classes and then like an exam and everything and that's a bit too much. I think it's stressful to prepare for all that. But yeah, no, it just definitely.

Shawn:

You know it's quite quite immersive still I was watching a house hunters international episode once and it was in new zealand and you, maori, obviously you know this, but the W-H sound is a fa right and it was in. I don't remember where it was. It wasn't Whakatane, it was something else Whangarei, maybe it was Whangarei but they kept saying the what.

Alex:

It's called Whakapapa.

Shawn:

Oh yeah, but it's literally the skiing called fucker papa. Oh yeah, but anyway, like let's say it was fungery, but they the whole episode they kept. The narrator kept saying wangari, oh no, that is such a big mistake to make. I wonder if it was deliberate because they thought viewers wouldn't know that the wh was a fuss sound oh, and that's yeah right, okay, yeah but it was weird still do like a little preamble at the start it wouldn't be that difficult.

Andy:

Yeah, but that's the right way for that language, if it's German or French or Luxembourgish, and I'll be like what did you just say? Like she said Roger Federer today, but she said it and was like French in it and I was like I have no idea who you're talking about. How do you say it?

Alex:

Federer.

Andy:

How do you say Roger?

Alex:

I just said Federer and he's like wait what?

Andy:

Yeah, but you said his whole name.

Alex:

Like Roger, you would say in Luxembourgish.

Andy:

So all at once.

Alex:

Roger Federer oh, okay.

Andy:

Roger Federer, you mean that's beautiful. Oh okay, Roger Federer, you mean that's beautiful.

Shawn:

Yeah, out of context, I probably wouldn't get that either. Yeah, he must hate hearing Americans say his name.

Andy:

Federer.

Pavel:

What is Sorry?

Andy:

What's my social security number?

Pavel:

Yeah, I mean like, besides Mexican food, is there anything that you miss about America?

Andy:

Well, I used to miss. You know, I used to like take half an empty suitcase back and then just pile it full of stuff that I can't get here.

Alex:

Tamales, Tamales Again where was I?

Andy:

You were. I can't get here. Tamales, tamales. I mean again, where would we go, tamales, you would travel. Loose tamales no in the can.

Alex:

The ones in the can, or like the salsa verde. Yeah, so food.

Andy:

But like everything from like clothes and tools and all that. But nowadays the prices there in the USs aren't really as favorable as they are here. They're about the same. It's not worth it to bring back a pair of jeans and sell it on the black market, like I was doing, tax-free well um oh, this isn't gonna go online, is it? Oh, this isn't going to go online, is it?

Alex:

But you know, like Arkansas is, you know, known for Walmart, so oftentimes you know you get everything in Walmart and so whatever he could find he would put in a suitcase. But now going there, you almost come out more expensive really. So it's not even worth the extra suitcase, the extra weight. You have to lug around and you can get a lot of it here anyway now it is now it is yeah but what about, like family or old friends?

Pavel:

oh, I'm like the first thing that we talk about is things, things, things.

Alex:

Mexican food. Yeah, I mean, I guess for my end, my family now is back in headquarters in Luxembourg, so it is a lot further to go. It's literally the other end of the world here. I think the antipode of Auckland is Madrid in Spain, so it's literally the other end of the world here. I think the antipode of auckland is madrid in spain. Um, so it's almost quicker to maybe what does that mean?

Shawn:

like through the globe?

Alex:

yeah, yeah, it's not easy. If I mean, I don't really want to think about this too much, but you know, in case of emergencies or whatnot, it's not an easy flight to hop on to then get to the other side. You know, you have to spend at least two days travel time, I think, maybe 34 hours, I think, was my record, probably and that's getting to a big town in Europe and then getting to Luxembourg. It's always at least another flight somehow. So, yeah, in that sense it's a little bit painful seeing family. Yeah, in that sense it's a little bit painful seeing family. Oftentimes, though, you know, because my folks are quite got the travel bug, so we can meet halfway somewhere or try somewhere else, which has always been pretty neat. And yeah, I mean same with your parents, andy. We convinced them once to meet us in Hawaii, which was really nice because for us it's only an eight-hour flight, so that's really nothing For them. It was still the US, something that they're familiar with.

Andy:

Domestic flights were bad.

Alex:

Oh yeah, yeah, within the US. That's the thing, yeah, but it's still a tropical island and we had a nice holiday and everything, and they even came here, so it's still it's manageable, but, yeah, it's definitely something that's a bit difficult, you know, we don't get to see them as much as we want to and you do have to have a plan in mind for emerging emergencies.

Andy:

Luckily for me, I can fly to dallas or houston or Houston any given day if I need to. I mean, I don't want to even think about the amount it'll cost, but if I need to go I can get there pretty quick.

Alex:

And then find out where to get to Arkansas. For that there might be another two flights from there. It might cost more too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn:

It's fine. You know, the two flights from there might cost more too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. I was looking at going to uh, wisconsin, which is where I grew up uh, to visit some family and friends and I was just shocked like I could get to. I could get from seattle to dublin, ireland, for hundreds of dollars less than going to wisconsin, and that was with a, that was with a connecting flight.

Alex:

It was crazy that's crazy, yeah alex andy, thanks for taking the time yeah, no problem, this was fun yeah, thanks and hopefully one day you guys can make make your way here too well, december there is a date but a one-way about that.

Shawn:

Well, that's the plan. So is New Zealand the answer? That depends on your profession, your patience and your appetite for naughty language on TV and long immigration forms. But for those who do qualify, new Zealand offers something rare in today's world A quiet, functional democracy, a landscape that borders on spiritual and a social contract built on trust, fairness and modesty things that our guests today, alex and Andy, both highlighted. It's not a quick fix and it's not an easy escape hatch from political disillusionment. It's a country with its own priorities, its own limits and its own expectations for the people who choose to call it home. But if you're ready to trade in chaos for calm and culture, wars for community gardens, new Zealand might just be your next chapter.

Shawn:

Next week, we're diving into something a little more transactional. Next week, we're diving into something a little more transactional. We're taking a close look at golden passports, the world of citizenship by investment. Specifically, we'll look at Malta, st Kitts and Nevis and a few other countries that will let you buy your way into a second passport. We'll talk costs, ethics, loopholes and what it means when citizenship becomes a commodity. If you enjoyed this episode or if you found it in any way helpful, please share it with someone who's thinking about their own escape plan. And remember, moving abroad isn't about giving up, which nobody would blame you for, but sometimes it's about starting fresh somewhere a little quieter and saner and safer. This is Leaving America, because sometimes home isn't where you started. Thank you.

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Shawn C. Fettig

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