Deep Dive with Shawn

Dead Democracy Walking: A Farewell (w/ Dr. Sara Benesh)

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What does it feel like to watch democracy crumble in real time? In this raw, deeply personal conversation that marks the (maybe) final episode of Deep Dive, host Shawn C. Fettig and political scientist Dr. Sara Benesh confront the terrifying reality of America's democratic collapse and our collective failure to respond.

After three and a half years of weekly episodes, Fettig explains his decision to step back from punditry about how bad things are and pivot toward developing content focused on effective resistance strategies. This shift comes from a growing recognition that simply documenting democracy's decline isn't enough—we need functional approaches to countering authoritarianism.

The conversation takes an unexpectedly intimate turn as both participants share their struggles to reconcile everyday life with the knowledge of ongoing atrocities. "I'm taking on this new job, figuring out where my son will go to college... and I'm like, but Gaza is starving. What does any of this stuff matter?" This cognitive dissonance mirrors what many Americans feel as they continue normal routines while democracy erodes around them.

Drawing powerful parallels to Nazi Germany, they explore memoirs of Germans who rationalized continuing ordinary life during Hitler's rise. The most chilling insight: "Those who were pessimistic survived because they saw what was coming and took active measures... those who were optimistic died." Are we making the same mistakes?

The discussion reveals the paralyzing collective action problem at democracy's heart—those least directly affected by authoritarianism must lead resistance efforts, yet they're precisely the ones with the most comfort to lose. Our commodified, distraction-filled lives make mobilization nearly impossible.

Rather than ending in despair, Fettig and Benesh suggest a new path forward: looking not just to failed democracies for lessons, but to successful resistance movements throughout history, including America's founding generation who overthrew tyranny and built something new. The question remains: will enough of us recognize this historical moment before it's too late?

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Dr. Benesh:

I just I don't even know how to wrap my mind around it and I don't know how people can go about their day when that's happening. Again, like I, you know, I feel you when you're like you know it is, it's ridiculous. Like I'm you know I'm taking on this new job, I'm worrying about all this paperwork, whatever I'm you know figuring out with Finn like where he's going to go to college and just move Molly into a new apartment and she's got her first real job, and like all these things, and I'm like, but like Gaza is starving.

Shawn:

Literally.

Dr. Benesh:

Like. What am I like? What does any of this stuff matter if we can't even do anything to make our stupid president? Send food to starving people. Send food to starving people.

Shawn:

Welcome to Deep Dive with me, Shawn C Fettig. So I've just released the last episode of my limited series Leaving America for Americans that are considering leaving the States, what options are available, how to obtain a visa, residency or even citizenship in another country, and all the things to consider and prepare for, including immigration processes and taxes. This week, I'm returning to Deep Dive for one potentially final episode. Like most of you, I'm sure, in this current political environment in which we are truly experiencing ascendant authoritarianism, I have found myself getting caught up in the daily disaster, spending much of my time digesting the news, jumping down rabbit holes, scaring my friends and family about these end times and expending all of my energy on every horrible thing coming out of the White House and the GOP. And while I think having a knowledge of and being disgusted by what is happening in this country is important, I've found that it's pulled me away from the things I'm really interested in, which is thinking about and engaging in activities and actions that can effectively counter this authoritarianism in the United States. I need to recalibrate how I consume and process this stuff so that it's not just soul destroying but motivating. So to do that, I've decided to pull back from Deep Dive, the weekly shows I've been producing for the past three and a half years. This may be a hiatus for Deep Dive or it may be permanent. In the meantime, I am working on some limited series projects that I think are better suited to how I'm feeling and thinking these days and hopefully will be of more value to you, the listener, than punditry and horror porn would be focusing on effective strategies to counter autocracy, oligarchy and authoritarianism, as well as what we or our children or our grandchildren are going to be tasked with rebuilding an American democracy. So I'm not disappearing for good. I'm just taking some time away and we'll be back eventually with some stuff that I hope will contribute to a stronger and better Democratic American future.

Shawn:

Today, my guest is Deep Dive's first guest ever and now last friend of the pod and my personal friend, dr Sara Benesh, professor of political science, director of curriculum and governance, secretary of the College at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. We discuss how the country has changed since Deep Dive launched the state of the country now, how to process what's happening and maybe some baby steps toward effective resistance to an authoritarian state. All right, if you like this episode or any episode, and despite the fact that Deep Dive won't be releasing anything in the near future. As I said, I am working on some other projects, so like, share and follow Deep Dive with Shawn on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube to stay updated on developments. And, as always, if you have any thoughts, questions or comments, feel free to email me at deepdivewithshawn at gmailcom. Let's do a deep dive, dr Benesh. Thanks for being here. How are you?

Dr. Benesh:

You know I'm exhausted. How are you?

Shawn:

Yeah, I'm probably the same. I wonder why.

Dr. Benesh:

Oh, I don't know.

Shawn:

This is the first time I think we've actually chatted outside of like text and email since the election right.

Dr. Benesh:

Probably. Yeah, I haven't been on your show for a while.

Shawn:

No, there's not, much has changed.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah.

Shawn:

So this is it, though I'm closing up shop.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, what made you decide to do that?

Shawn:

There's a handful of reasons. We have always talked about moving back to New Zealand and we've thought about maybe moving that timeline up. Why? Yeah we can get to that.

Dr. Benesh:

Whatever for?

Shawn:

But we're going back to New Zealand for a month this December and you know we're going to start kind of actively working towards that, and so I was thinking of maybe pivoting and focusing on that, because it's not easy to make an international move for anyone that's ever done it, but also I don't know. I guess, primarily given where the country is today and the discourse surrounding it, I think that the types of guests that I've had on Deep Dive and could have moving forward on Deep Dive are really the same people or pundits, or activists or researchers that are on a bunch of podcasts and TV shows. So by being on Deep Dive they're just, I think, offering some of the same thing that can be found on other platforms and outlets. I mean, there's no shade here. But because I think there's a place for this, for punditry, for talking about the state of, you know, the world and the country, I think that's important, there's a value to it. But I think I'm ready to move away from punditry about how bad things are and maybe start talking about what actually could be done to counter the rise of what I think is authoritarianism in the United States, and it's just not part of the conversation right now.

Shawn:

I think this moment is kind of revealing a glaring absence in the maybe research or maybe journalism or something.

Shawn:

It's very easy, I think, to say that we need things We've talked about this, like bipartisanship, but that's not going to happen right now or that we need what else we talked about this, like bipartisanship, but that's not going to happen right now or that we need what else. Have we talked about Recommitting to norms and institutions, but that's not going to happen. So I think we need, you know, this moment really calls for somebody or some people to tell us what can functionally be done to save democracy, and I don't think that's really what's happening right now. I think we're all floundering, but when that narrative forms, when we start to speak in those terms, I think I'd be happy to be part of that conversation. But right now I just don't see how Deep Dive is offering anything that stands out from the rest of the pack. So and I'm not absolving myself of responsibility here, I'm not saying that I'm taking a passive role in this, or I should take one I just truly don't know what to do.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, I mean I think what you offered that other podcasts don't always offer is an opportunity to really dive into the research much more fully. You know, I mean I don't really call what you've been doing punditry. I think it's, you know, far more thoughtful than that. Punditry is easy and that's you know. I mean I spend most of the time.

Dr. Benesh:

So my husband always has CNN on. He's a news junkie and I spend half my time walking through the living room looking at what he's listening to and going, oh, it's so obvious. Or like, oh, come on, you know that that's only half the story. Or you know, like just kind of being annoyed with the pundits, you know, because they make everything seem like it's so simple and nothing's simple, and I feel like you at least created space for that, you know, for people to talk about how not simple things are, and I think that's something. But I mean, where is, where are these people? Who are these people? What area of work are these people doing that are going to give you what you're looking for in terms of a way forward, do you think?

Shawn:

I don't know. I know there's a literature on this You're probably familiar with some of it which is how to stop democratic backsliding or how to overthrow authoritarianism or resistance movements that have worked in past, and I think there's something to be mined there and something that's important to draw from that. But I just don't think that anything but you've talked to some of those people, haven't you?

Shawn:

Yeah, but you know, and this again, there's no shade here, but a lot of it is things that have to be done before you've turned a corner. There's very little that says once you've turned the corner, what can you do? You know, like, once you know Hitler was chancellor and had declared emergency powers and became a dictator, there was very little that could be done outside of, dare I say it, I guess like mass protest. But there is research that says peaceful protest. What is that? We've talked about this right that at 3.5% of some type of resistance or peaceful protests can counter authoritarianism.

Dr. Benesh:

Right, but even that, I mean that's based on you know what has happened in the past and what works in other countries, and are you familiar with this Cliff Cash guy.

Shawn:

No.

Dr. Benesh:

He's like a comedian, but he's decided to just try to go all in and try to try to stop this thing from happening. And so he's out there, like you know, protesting. He's like focused on Fox News a lot and he's, you know, trying to coordinate like kind of a community organizer on the ground. But he keeps posting on Facebook like how frustrated he is that people aren't engaging more, Like why aren't more people coming to protest? Why aren't more people going to DC when Trump takes over the city?

Dr. Benesh:

You know like why aren't more people? And you know, I think that's where you know some of the literature tells us where these movements can come from and how they can work and all those kinds of things, but that literature doesn't know how lazy Americans are. Well, we're commodified.

Shawn:

I have a lot of friends that have told me recently and we can talk about how I'm starting to layer what happened in Nazi Germany to what might be happening here. But we are very commodified, we. We can easily distract ourselves with TV, with our phones, for better or worse, and I guess there's an argument about capitalism in here somewhere. But we have a pretty strong middle class in the United States and none of us you and me included, I would assume want to lose that. And you know, I think we all know, that to go protest somewhere requires taking time off from our jobs, and I think some people are lucky enough to be able to do that and still get paid, and some people would have to give up their jobs to do it.

Dr. Benesh:

But even the people that are lucky enough to do it you know the fact the very fact that they're lucky enough to do it suggests that they're not being so negatively impacted by what's happening in their everyday life that they feel the need to put away whatever their you know their book or their device, or their you know vacation plans to go and do it.

Shawn:

It's a weird time to be living. Frankly, I consider it somewhat instructive. If I could look at this only anthropologically but I live with this I would say low level of dread every day, but I think it's getting to be a pretty high level of dread. But this weird dynamic, which is I'm not directly affected yet I know people that are and I feel really weird. I've had some conversations with people about how weird it is to go to work every day and do our jobs and talk about things that, in this larger picture, just seem very pointless and insignificant, and yet we are.

Dr. Benesh:

Right, because I think we assume it's going to be okay. And you know, back to your point about Germans, you know, I mean I think we all kind of make these assumptions about what happened then. And you know you're right. I mean we've, we've talked about this Like we kind of as business, and that's what we're all doing. Yeah it's not. We're not saying it's OK and we're not saying we're OK with it, and I mean Trump's approval. Ratings are terrible. Ratings are terrible.

Shawn:

Yeah.

Dr. Benesh:

But we're not making the time to do anything about it, and part of that.

Shawn:

I think, is this profound feeling of helplessness. Yeah, that's what I'm starting to come to realize about what I think must have been happening in the early years of Nazi Germany. I've been reading this book. I read this book called Defying Hitler by Sebastian Hafner. He was a journalist writing in Weimar Germany and into the Nazi era, but he writes about the end of World War I, that era up through the fall of Weimar Germany and just what it was like in civil society to watch this kind of rise of Nazism and how people responded.

Shawn:

But I'm also reading now this other book called my German Question, by Peter Gay. And he was a young guy, I think he was a teenager in the 1930s in Berlin and his family were non-religious Jews. And he talks a lot about and this is what's really resonating with me about how his family, especially his father, they could see what was happening but his father kept doing this thing where it's like, you know, we're non-practicing Jews, it's not really affecting us that much. We're, you know, upper middle class, we're doing well, you know we can just keep our heads down and stick through this.

Shawn:

And he talks about as a teenager kind of growing up and learning how to avoid some of the worst excesses of the Nazi regime and how to just focus on other things and stay apolitical, but that over the years. You know, it would have been easy in the early 30s for them to leave, but they would have had to give up their house, their wealth, give up everything and leave. And they didn't know to where and so they didn't. And then, by the time they did leave, in the late 30s, they had to give up everything. They had to leave everything behind. They had to rely on people to like.

Dr. Benesh:

Essentially, use an underground railroad to get them out and had to start over.

Shawn:

And you know, to me that's what I feel like is happening is and I'm not advocating, you know, I just did Leaving America, I'm not advocating that people should consider leaving. But there's this other maxim that came out of, I think, poland where, like Polish Jews, there's a story associated with this. But the end is, those that were pessimistic survived because they saw what was coming and they took active measures to avoid it, and those that were optimistic died because they thought it would either pass or they could deal with it effectively, and they couldn't it effectively and they couldn't. And it just makes me wonder if that's the moment we're living through right now.

Shawn:

And then every moment in history plays out differently. So I don't assume that this will play out exactly the same, but it does worry me. And what it would take from all of us is there have to be people that are willing to stand up, but those are the first. It's like the first wave of soldiers. Those are the people that the regime is going to take the most fierce action to send a message to the rest of us. So those are the people that are going to, potentially the people going to prison or being killed.

Dr. Benesh:

Right, and that's why I think it was important early on with some of the protests that the crowds were mostly middle class white people, right, that we could afford to protest because you know the Trump administration isn't turning its head to us, and so that's probably the worst case scenario for this whole situation, right, probably the worst case scenario for this whole situation, right. The people who are least directly affected are the ones that are going to have to be the ones to stand up, and that's the hardest group to mobilize.

Shawn:

Well, we're the ones that can hide the easiest.

Dr. Benesh:

Right.

Shawn:

There's that it's a it's I don't know if it's a poem, but that you know what I'm talking about where it's like first they came for that can so easily apply today. Right, it was. First it was supposedly undocumented immigrants, then it was legal immigrants, then it was even citizens and residence holders, and now it's homeless folks.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, yeah. And they spin these narratives that just don't even care about the facts, right.

Shawn:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Benesh:

And that happened, that started happening a while ago, this whole, you know, questioning of any kind of, you know, objective truth. I mean, there's so many things that went into, you know, making this moment possible that are so long laid, do you think?

Shawn:

we can go back.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, because I'm an optimist. But that's terrible. That might mean the end of me, right?

Shawn:

I don't know. What do you do with theory. I think that I keep saying this, but I keep saying we're a dead democracy walking. But what I'm really trying to say is I think democracy in America as we understood it is just over, and I know to some people still today this sounds histrionic or hyperbolic or something, but I would argue it was even during the Biden presidency. I remember when Biden was elected and I was asking people at the time like what if Biden is just like Paul von Hindenburg at the end of the Weimar German Republic, their president? He was like 84, I think at the time and he just wasn't up to the task of taking on Hitler and the Nazi party and I was like, what, if that's what this is?

Shawn:

This is a brief respite, right, and then it falls. I at that time was thinking I already think our democracy is so broken that one I don't think we do go back to it. I also just want to throw out there.

Dr. Benesh:

I'm not sure I want to go back to it.

Shawn:

There were a bunch of things that I think were built into our system, that were failures and weaknesses that allowed us to get to this moment, and I guess I would like to understand what the next phase of American democracy could look like. And I'll just throw out there I think we could do away with the Second Amendment. I'm totally fine with something that clearly says Americans, within certain parameters, have a right to guns that are specifically used to hunt for food, but I don't see why we can't outlaw anything else like weapons, people hunting things. I also think we need a right to privacy that's clearly codified. Until we do, I think there's just this wiggle room that allows both liberals and conservatives to play around when they're in power.

Dr. Benesh:

Well there's. I mean we also need to change the way we draw our districts. We might want to think about the way we choose representatives to both houses of Congress. We might want to rethink the way that we select Supreme Court justices. I mean, if we're going to do a do-over, there's a lot of things that are wrong with our system.

Shawn:

Hey, I want to bounce something off of you. So you know, there's this whole redistricting push which God, whenever you think it's as bad as it could get, then this shit happens.

Dr. Benesh:

I know I was like can you do that? Like you can't do that, and then I'm like, oh, there is no law against it.

Shawn:

Texas has done it before. They've redistricted halfway through before. It just didn't get a lot of attention.

Dr. Benesh:

What was their reason? The last time, I think it was the same thing.

Shawn:

They just wanted to add seats.

Shawn:

It wasn't so threatening, I suppose, at the time. But what I was thinking is this is crazy and I don't really know enough about the constitutional parameters here, but I'm not quite sure, and I have to do some research on this how we define a state and I know there is a definition right Like a certain group of people delineate some borders and have a legislature and then petition to become part of the United States or something. I think that's something along those lines. Don't quote me on that. But in the Constitution, when it says, like each state shall have two senators, I wonder if there's a way for us to keep the boundaries of states as they exist but rename them as, like you know, washington State is District 1, california is District 3, whatever, but then establish something like every 20 years we redraw what's called state boundaries, that breaks the country up into 50 regions that have the same number of people and give them to senators, because now that's a state right, and then every region will have the same number of representatives. Wyoming won't have what is it?

Dr. Benesh:

63 times what california has I think it's way easier to just change the size of the senate or something. I mean. Either of those things is going to require a constitutional amendment, because I do think that the constitution, you know it, has a trying to think of how it defines states I mean, yeah, exactly that's the well, what if california broke itself up into five states? Yeah, maybe that's the next thing newsom will be tweeting about in all caps well, to be fair, he could probably eke out.

Shawn:

We're gonna get more senators I'm actually starting to pivot and think like maybe the senate is where it has to happen.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah.

Shawn:

But then, at this stage, at this point, aren't we just grasping at?

Dr. Benesh:

straws. I mean it's, it's turning. I mean this redistricting thing is turning into a nuclear war, right? I mean it's like you know, well, we're going to blow it up. Ok, well then, so are we. And then it's like what is that? What's the end game, you know?

Shawn:

I mean I was thinking a few years ago, maybe like a decade ago, I was like, are we headed towards a civil war? And for some reason I've stopped worrying so much about that, as much as I have about authoritarianism. But what I hear from I have quite a few friends that live abroad in different areas of the world they keep asking if the United States is headed towards a civil war.

Dr. Benesh:

Well, I mean, that's one way for things to go. To go right is for it to get so dire that the majority finally decides to rise up against this regime, and I'm sure we would get lots of help from our friends around the world, right?

Shawn:

do you?

Dr. Benesh:

yeah, I do, I don't know. Know, I mean they don't respect Trump and his administration.

Shawn:

Yeah.

Dr. Benesh:

And I think that's much less Pollyannish than you know. You were talking about some of the earlier, you know, experts talking about how well the police will never go along with it, or the military will never go along with it, or you know, whatever, whatever, like. I think it's far more likely to it's far, far easier, or maybe more justifiable, to rely on our, our former allies, who have been isolated by this administration, than it is to rely on, you know, members of the military or something, to to be the ones to save us. Not that I'm saying anything bad about the military. I just I just think the design of it is makes it really difficult, especially given that he know, took care of all the generals you know, so that all his friends are in charge.

Shawn:

This is another sick component of it is like the use of the military and the National Guard Cause, like we know, that these are heavily populated with people of color, hispanic folks, black, folks At the low ranks yeah. And then to like, put them on the streets, essentially confronting, you know, hispanic soldiers that now have to essentially confront their own family members, potentially.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, and the ICE, the Homeland Security ICE stuff is just, it's just egregious.

Shawn:

Yeah, I don't know that I trust our allies, I mean maybe in the long run, but I've been really disappointed in some of them.

Dr. Benesh:

I mean I kind of get where, and I'm sure it will take them a while. You know they have to be sure that it's like you know, because that's a difficult ethical judgment to make in terms of, you know, intervening militarily in some sort of a civil conflict.

Shawn:

Yeah, of you know, intervening militarily in some sort of a civil conflict? Yeah, I mean well, massive implications. Yeah, I wish they would level up a little quicker. I understand that our allies, especially European, canadian, they've really built their democracies around this idea of the allies that we have and the role that the United States plays and the institutions and the norms and the values that we hold, and so they're still playing that game. But I wish they'd kind of level up a bit faster and recognize that, like the tariff thing, trump may agree to like 15 percent tariffs, but as soon as he wants you something from you, policy wise, he's going to threaten that again, and so to me it's like just recognize that that's going to happen.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, that's the whole. I mean, that's the whole. Reason why we want the rule of law is so you can rely on what a leader says, or a threat that they make, or whatever, and he's just like running amok on that.

Shawn:

Yeah, and right now I feel like our allies have an opportunity to tell their people look, this is going to hurt, but here's here's the foil for it. You know, hurt, but here's here's the foil for it, you know. But like constantly trying to appease him, I think, eventually, my fear is that their own populations are going to be upset, get upset with them for the way that they're handling this, and that could enable the rise of the far right in those countries well, and they're already ascendant right I mean it's not like we're the only country that has you know shades of authoritarianism.

Shawn:

No, Italy, Netherlands, the UK flirted with it, but then also France, Spain, Austria. Yeah.

Dr. Benesh:

I mean it's something that's happening, it's not a one-off kind of thing. What is it I mean? Is it racism across the board?

Shawn:

I honestly don't know. A lot of people say, well, this is about immigration and populism that's kind of rooted in a xenophobia, and I think these things are all true, but I think there's something deeper and more psychological about it, Like what? I don't know if it's just power.

Dr. Benesh:

Is it money? Is that the bottom line driver of Donald Trump?

Shawn:

I don't know, because when we talk about money, I think the people that really care, really really care about vast amounts of wealth and money and how it moves, are like these tech bros, elon Musk, but I think, like your average citizen, I think they say things like yeah, I'm noticing that prices are rising, that's why I'm voting for Trump, right, but as soon as Trump's in office and prices are still rising, it doesn't bother them.

Dr. Benesh:

No, it's not the vote. The voters I'm not saying the voters are motivated by money. The voters, I think, are racist. Sorry, I think it's.

Shawn:

I'm asking about Trump.

Dr. Benesh:

Like you know, he doesn't. I didn't feel like in his first term, especially that he particularly wanted the job, Right yeah, and so I felt like there had to be some other motivator and I feel like for him everything is money, Although I think he likes power obviously.

Shawn:

Yeah.

Dr. Benesh:

And young women, sorry.

Shawn:

There's something just so gross about the United States right now.

Dr. Benesh:

Something.

Shawn:

Yeah, what if somebody were to say, like history will look back on this period of time and they won't be able to mention Trump without mentioning Hitler, or Hitler without mentioning Trump?

Dr. Benesh:

I mean, I guess it depends on what he does. I mean, Shawn, it's only been eight months.

Shawn:

I know that's the scary part. I was actually thinking about that this morning. Okay, we're going to get to a point where, like, okay, we're 25% of the way through, maybe Right, but look what he's done already.

Dr. Benesh:

I know, but like he hasn't well, he has killed people through that ridiculous action he took on USAID.

Shawn:

Yeah.

Dr. Benesh:

Which Potentially millions?

Dr. Benesh:

Makes me I can't even tell you how angry and sad I just I don't even know how to wrap my mind around it and I don't know how people can go about their day when that's happening. Again, like I, you know, I feel you when you're like you know it is, it's ridiculous. Like I'm you know, I'm taking on this new job, I'm worrying about all this paperwork, whatever I'm you know figuring out with Finn like where he's going to go to college and just move Molly into a new apartment she's got her first real job and like all these things and I'm like but like Gaza is starving.

Shawn:

Literally.

Dr. Benesh:

Like. What am I like? What does any of this stuff matter if we can't even do anything to make our stupid president send food to starving people?

Shawn:

And destroy it instead of share it. There's something it's not just cynical, it's to me. It's not just cynical, it's to me, it's evil, it is the definition of evil. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Benesh:

And it's not much different than killing people directly.

Shawn:

Yeah, yeah, especially when you know that's what's happening and you're doing it deliberately.

Dr. Benesh:

It's one step different, right yeah yeah. It's one. You know, it's one degree different.

Shawn:

And they're even normalizing that. When you know they're confronted with people that have died in ICE custody or people that have had heart attacks while being arrested, the response from the administration is well, people die all the time.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, hey. So in your field of study, how do you feel about the courts these days? Well, they took the case of, or they have the opportunity right to take the case of, gay marriage, so that's great everyone's like oh, this is this, this case is such, it's so bad on the merits they won't even take it.

Shawn:

And I'm, like we, sure about that why would you say that?

Dr. Benesh:

yeah yeah, I don't, I oscillate between I. There are some justices and I think I've said this to you before some justices who I just think live in a different world.

Shawn:

Alito Thomas.

Dr. Benesh:

No, they're evil. Oh okay, I thought that's the other world you were talking about.

Dr. Benesh:

No, like I feel like Roberts Barrett Kavanaugh to some degree Gorsuch. I feel like they just don't live in our reality. They don't understand the moment that they're making decisions in, and they are making decisions as if everything is OK and normal. And so I see some of their decisions and I'm like, okay, you could defend this decision using legal analysis and tools and interpretive strategies and philosophies if it weren't the case that this was the Trump administration and they don't recognize a distinction. Thomas and Alito are gone. There's no hope for them, but, like these four, I feel like are not gone. They just don't understand the moment, and so I don't know if that might be something they could come to understand. What do you think of that?

Shawn:

I am a pessimist, Right so you're going to survive. Well, we'll see, because Posh is an pessimist, right? So you're going to survive. Well, I was, we'll see, because Pasha's an optimist. So I was thinking a lot about how a lot of experts have said things over the years, over the last couple of years, like Congress, is fiercely protective of its realm of influence, and so, therefore, they won't.

Dr. Benesh:

Well, it used to be. It's not anymore.

Shawn:

Right, and the courts? I was told numerous times you'll be surprised. The courts aren't willing to abdicate too much because they have won a constitutional responsibility. But two, they have a certain sphere of influence that they're going to want to protect. And that makes sense if you live in a logical world. But I think there's another logic to this, which is what if they all just agree with the mission?

Dr. Benesh:

Well, that's what I struggle with. Alito and Thomas agree with the mission, no question. What I wonder is about the other four, and it does appear to be the case that they might agree in some respects, because I think you know the founders, when they established this system, assumed that each of the three branches would be at least some. You know some semblance of self-protecting. You know that they would want to at least be at some level interested in maintaining their own influence, and that has always been the case until now. I mean because I've never. I mean it's shocking to me that Congress would allow an executive, regardless of how much they agree with him, to run Rofshad over their powers in the way that Trump has done.

Shawn:

That's why I think we are living in very unique times and I don't think anything that we think should apply, we can expect will apply to curb this, and I think there's a Venn diagram. I think this is where Trump is very smart. There's a Venn diagram of what he cares about and what he knows conservatives care about, and I think what he does is he plays in their sandbox in such a way where he takes a lot of power from them but uses it to give them what they want, and so their options are get what we want and let him do what he wants, or fight him on this, on something we actually want.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah.

Shawn:

If we win, we lose. We don't get what we want.

Dr. Benesh:

Whereas the Democrats would definitely fight him. You know they would.

Shawn:

Oh, you mean if they had a Democratic president?

Dr. Benesh:

Right.

Shawn:

Yes, yes.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, but you kind of lost me when you said that Trump was smart.

Shawn:

So I know. What do you hope for over the next couple of years?

Dr. Benesh:

I hope so. I think I think where I have seen some hope is among my daughter's generation. Um, I feel like they are more engaged than the average 18 to 25 demographic. I'm not, I, I I am assuming it has something to do with trump, but I don't know. But they, uh, that group, I feel like. I feel like they're coming in at the perfect time because I think I think my generation, our generation, are we in the same generation? Probably?

Dr. Benesh:

yeah yeah, yeah um, I feel like we maybe went too far with the you know the very careful language, and the you know adamant inclusion and the progressive whatever, and we alienated a lot of people for things that they maybe agree with. They just didn't agree with how militant we were, and I feel like these kids have those sensibilities, but they also understand that there's a way to advance them without being as in your face, as maybe our group thought we had to be, and I think that has the potential to bring people on board that haven't been on board and might offer some glimpse of possibility.

Shawn:

Well, I'll raise a glass to that. I do agree, though. I was also in spaces sometimes where I'm hesitant sometimes, because I feel like in moments like this it's like you're in or you're out, and so I want to be really careful about giving an inch to the whatever conservative movement is right now. But I have I definitely was in spaces sometimes where I felt like progressives were just unforgiving of somebody accidentally using the wrong pronouns or mispronouncing a foreign name or something or struggling with understanding things. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Benesh:

No, and they weren't. It's not like they were being hostile, it was just it was so far beyond their experience that they, you know, you have to understand. It's going to take people time and I think maybe we weren't giving people time.

Shawn:

I agree. That being said, I do think we all have agency and at some point you're choosing light or darkness.

Dr. Benesh:

No doubt I mean, and like I don't understand why anyone cares what other people you know want to do in spaces that are private, you know, and I don't understand why people you know think that people are, you know, less than or more than based on who they love or how they live, you know.

Dr. Benesh:

I mean that I don't understand that perception, especially from you. Know, the thing that I think makes me the craziest about this whole timeline is that, especially from you. Know, the thing that I think makes me the craziest about this whole timeline is that you know the big government people are supposed to be the liberals and like these conservatives are like everywhere.

Shawn:

Yeah, also, it's weird to be the one that's like well states rights.

Dr. Benesh:

I know Now, I want states rights. I also want a constitutional convention. Yeah, yeah.

Shawn:

Yeah, and you can't want that, I know Now. I want states' rights. I also want a constitutional convention.

Dr. Benesh:

Yeah, yep, yep, and you can't want that.

Shawn:

I know, I know.

Dr. Benesh:

Yes, you know how bad that will be.

Shawn:

Oh yeah, right now it would be terrible and I also don't want to. I do and I don't want to redistrict ourselves into corners. I know I don't want to live in that America, but I also feel like I don't want to live in the America where the only ones doing it are Republicans.

Dr. Benesh:

I know.

Shawn:

So it's just the reality is I just don't want to live here.

Dr. Benesh:

I, yeah, I mean, I understand that feeling. I also just think it's. You know, it's a beautiful country. The wrong people run for office Shawn. Well it's not going to get any better. It will, it could.

Shawn:

You know, what I really have hope for is that Ohio, maine and North Carolina grow up a little in the next election and elect Democratic senators. That would make us 50-50. And, like right now, republicans are targeting like Minnesota, like that's not a great map for them.

Dr. Benesh:

No, but Minnesota was a lot closer than it's ever been.

Shawn:

New York was too.

Dr. Benesh:

And Wisconsin drives me crazy. I guess we'll see. We need more parties. Probably Probably Elon Musk will save us that guy.

Shawn:

I actually do believe that we need more parties.

Dr. Benesh:

Oh, we for sure do.

Shawn:

It can't just be the crazy nut job starting parties.

Dr. Benesh:

Yes, we for sure do, because no one likes the Democrats or the Republicans, and I think we can all agree on that.

Shawn:

Yeah, okay, for the final time, what's something interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to or doing lately?

Dr. Benesh:

Oh God, all I've been doing is this onboarding for this new job. Let me think the Bear oh do you like? It, oh God I love that show?

Shawn:

Oh, I do not. But tell me, go ahead, is it?

Dr. Benesh:

too chaotic for you, yes, yes. Oh, I love the chaos. I think it's hilarious and I love the writing and I love the chaos. I think it's hilarious and I love the writing and I love the characters and I love cooking. I love cooking shows anyway, oh, I just eat that family drama right up.

Shawn:

Oh wow. I watched one episode and I was like, if this is like, I can't do it.

Dr. Benesh:

Oh, and some of them are way worse. Did you watch the first one? Like the pilot? Yes, oh God, if you could ever stand to invest in it. Um, wait till you get to the christmas episode. Is that the one with the mom?

Shawn:

yes, okay, yeah, I've heard a lot about that one oh, I love that show shawn.

Dr. Benesh:

Is it a comedy? No, god, no, I don't know why it's in the comedy category. That's crazy yeah I mean there are funny things about it, sure, but like I mean there's like all kinds of mental health issues, mm-hmm, you know, tons of family drama, but like so much love, it's just, oh, it's such a good show.

Shawn:

Well, that might be part of the reason I don't. I didn't like it is because I was really like what's the fun? Is this? What kids?

Dr. Benesh:

find funny. No, no, no, it's not a comedy. I would never categorize it as a comedy.

Shawn:

All right, dr Benesh, thank you for contributing over the last almost four years. I appreciate it and of course we'll stay in touch, but nobody else listening will.

Dr. Benesh:

It's been super fun and then that's good for the audience because they won't have to listen to me giggle all the time.

Shawn:

It's what added to it. It's the only thing of value.

Dr. Benesh:

Let's just have a podcast with Sara Giggling.

Shawn:

I guess the final thing I'd like to say is that, like many of you, I don't know what to do in this moment. Democracy has failed. In the United States we are staring down the throat of authoritarianism and I don't know how to respond. There is a collective action problem. Know how to respond? There is a collective action problem. It takes all of us demonstrating, boycotting, hurting, frankly, to really make a difference, to disrupt the chain of events. But we're all afraid and or angry and or self-interested.

Shawn:

I can't tell you how often I've heard from my progressive friends. Well, this isn't really affecting me right now, so I'm just going to keep my head down, and I guess we're all aware, theoretically, that burying our heads in the sand is not a solution to authoritarianism. But in practice we are experiencing what it must have been like for society, for families, for individuals, in the early days of Nazi Germany, when Hitler consolidated power, increased pressure, cracked down on undesirable people. It was probably easier to just keep their heads down and hope that it wouldn't impact them at first anyway. It's easy to scorn that mentality, but living through this moment in the United States, I guess I'm beginning to understand it. But I'm not comfortable with it.

Shawn:

So I want to spend some time thinking about how to counter authoritarianism effectively, how to implement strategies to this effect and how to rebuild America. And maybe we shouldn't be looking to Nazi Germany to help us understand this moment, but rather the founding parents and the ways in which they galvanized a diverse public to throw off the yoke of authoritarianism and build something more free and more democratic, and also learn from the mistakes they made, so that whatever we build next isn't susceptible to bad actors like Donald Trump and the current version of the GOP. I'm interested in hearing from people with ideas about this. These are the people I want to see on TV and hear on podcasts and receive emails from, and when I next contribute to the discourse, I want to be doing so from a place of construction and functional action that can be taken to build a better democracy. So stay tuned. All right, this has been Deep Dive. Chat soon, folks. Thank you, thank you.

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Shawn C. Fettig

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